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Jesus is a Capitalist [Pope Francis Errs]
World Net Daily ^ | December 1, 2013 | Jonathon Moseley

Posted on 12/01/2013 3:27:58 PM PST by Moseley

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But we have to define our terms:

•By “socialism,” we must understand “theft.” A socialist government uses brute force, backed up by guns, to steal property from some people to give it to others.Pope Francis reflects the wish that governments might better organize society. But governments cannot do that apart from the threat of violence to enforce their schemes. Would Jesus endorse the violence needed for government intervention?

•By capitalism, we mean individual initiative under freedom, with the right to use what people own and to reap the fruits of one’s labor and initiative. Capitalist business must necessarily benefit society, because private businesses have no power to force anyone to buy their products or services. The consumer is king. Consumers won’t buy unless the purchase benefits them. To reinforce that central pillar of capitalism, laws against lying and fraud are proper and necessary. The consumer must be able to know and understand what he is buying and what it truly costs. The same applies to employment.

•We reject crony capitalism and monopolies. That is what the Vatican obviously believes capitalism means. When corrupt governments are entangled with businesses, then transactions are no longer voluntary. Crony capitalism is what most people experience in Francis’ native Argentina, throughout Latin America and much of the Third World. The benefit to society is absent without informed consent.

We know that Jesus condemns crony capitalism. That’s partly what the incident at the temple was all about in Matthew 21, when Jesus overturned the tables of money-changers. Some think money-changers were bankers. Actually they exchanged one currency for another. The temple priests required that special temple coins had to be used to give mandatory tithes. So worshipers had to exchange their secular money. But the money-changers were defrauding people with a dishonest exchange rate.

1 posted on 12/01/2013 3:27:58 PM PST by Moseley
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To: Moseley

Jesus knew that mankind requires perfect freedom in order to love God. Love is not love which is forced. That’s why we’re free, and subject to the forces of the world.


2 posted on 12/01/2013 3:33:11 PM PST by Mr Ramsbotham (If you liked the website, you'll LOVE the healthcare!)
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To: Moseley

The word capitalism does not even appear in the Apostolic Exhortation entitled The Joy of the Gospel. In fact, there is nothing new in what Francis says about economics in this document at all. These insights are a part of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church and have been for a very long time.


3 posted on 12/01/2013 3:34:47 PM PST by Ge0ffrey
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To: Moseley

In a way, you are right. The only way for salvation was through Christ. In his words, deny yourself, pick up my cross, and follow Jesus.


4 posted on 12/01/2013 3:36:10 PM PST by DownInFlames
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To: Moseley

Somehow Jesus never preached that Caesar and Herod should be the arbitrators of social justice or that they should have the means of production and distribution.


5 posted on 12/01/2013 3:44:57 PM PST by allendale
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To: Ge0ffrey

Whether new or old the thoughts about capitalism and socialism radically violate and contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ. They are wrong whether new or old.

Pope Francis uses the term “markets” instead of capitalism. But his meaning is unmistakable.

Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation explicitly argues for government intervention in the economy (markets) which can only be achieved by government violence or threat of violence. Jesus does not support violence to intervene in the economy.


6 posted on 12/01/2013 3:45:27 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: Moseley
That’s partly what the incident at the temple was all about in Matthew 21, when Jesus overturned the tables of money-changers. Some think money-changers were bankers.

I thought it was because Jesus didn't want the sanctity of the temple violated by commerce.
Thus the first separation of church and state.

7 posted on 12/01/2013 3:46:02 PM PST by oldbrowser ("From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" .....Marx)
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To: Moseley

Jesus was in favour of some redistribution of wealth - done through each and every individual. Even the widow’s small amount was wealth redistribution, but done by the widow.

Even when the tithe is given, to keep the storehouse full, it was done individually, voluntarily, to help others, and in obedience to God.

Jesus was not, imho, a socialist. Socialism is tyranny. It gives power to the power-hungry.


8 posted on 12/01/2013 3:49:29 PM PST by JudyinCanada
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To: Moseley

Jesus said in his own words:

Matt. 20: 15

“Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?”

I`ll follow Jesus any day of the week, thank you Sir!


9 posted on 12/01/2013 3:50:10 PM PST by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.")
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To: Moseley

No more can we claim Jesus a capitalist as they can a socialist. Jesus was indeed for personal freedom and also personal responsibility. He also told his disciples to pay the tax to Caesar and would have been well acquainted with tithing and gleaning which were God ordered ways of a) Taking care of temple/kingly/governmental needs and of taking care of the poor.

Mel


10 posted on 12/01/2013 3:51:15 PM PST by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: Moseley
Let me run something by you---and I don't expect everyone to agree, but . . .

Jesus did not ask His followers to ever do ANYTHING that He didn't do. If He said lay down your life, He did that. Therefore, I think it reasonable to think that He gave money away, regularly and generously, or He could not justly tell us to do so. ("He was tempted in all ways as are we, yet without sin.") I believe He had money from the kings who visited Joseph's HOUSE (not the manger!!) as a "young child" and gave Him gold, frankensense and myrrh. But I think it was more than three (no mention of "three kings" is ever made) and I think most brought gold---only one guy forgot his gift and stopped at Speedway for an air freshener, a Zippo lighter, frankensense, and myrrh :) Anyway, I believe (and have some evidence if you want me to share) that He and the disciples had on them cash at all times; that He was in the habit of giving it away anonymously, at night (see the comment on Judas at the Last Supper that he was going to "give something to the poor" . . . HUH? At midnight? Unless that's what he did all the time as per Jesus's orders).

So I believe that Jesus set an example of giving for His disciples and therefore can command us to give and it shall be given unto us because He gave.

11 posted on 12/01/2013 3:52:27 PM PST by LS ('Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually.' Hendrix)
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To: Moseley
"Pope Francis errs."

Well, what else is new?

12 posted on 12/01/2013 3:59:21 PM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12----No king but Christ! Don't tread on me!)
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To: Moseley
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

Hardly a ringing endorsement for EBT cards or the Marxist food stamp program. Christianity is not collectivist in any way, shape or form.

13 posted on 12/01/2013 4:00:12 PM PST by re_nortex (DP - that's what I like about Texas)
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To: Moseley

Jesus died in what, 33AD? The word ‘capitalism’ was invented by Marx in the 19th century. But then you’re right, Jesus being God knew in 30AD that Marx would invent the word 1,900 years later. Never mind.


14 posted on 12/01/2013 4:01:09 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Moseley

Bump


15 posted on 12/01/2013 4:01:34 PM PST by WashingtonSource
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To: melsec

Funnily enough too - if you read Acts - you will see that the Apostles and their followers did live in a sort of collectivist association where everyone brought money to the cause. Also Paul said that true religion takes care of the widow and orphan this makes us realize along with the freedoms comes dire responsibility.

Mel


16 posted on 12/01/2013 4:10:09 PM PST by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: Moseley

Yes, everyone knows Jesus came to Earth and died for free markets.


17 posted on 12/01/2013 4:15:18 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: escapefromboston

Jesus likes Kenny G., too.


18 posted on 12/01/2013 4:16:09 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Moseley

IMO Pope Francis is a very nice but Naïve man who has no idea about the world economy.

Like everyone even we Freepers it hurts him to see poor people, People who are struggling, but he has no conception of the people who refuse to help themselves and he has no conception that their ranks are growing and instead of their finding work or wanting work they are perfectly willing to let others support them.

WE see people—Christians -—in Syria and Africa dying by the hands of Muslims, but we do not see the Pope raising a hue and cry for them. Yet he raises an alarm about the economic system. Where is his compassion for the Dying and persecuted Christians in the Middle East.


19 posted on 12/01/2013 4:16:59 PM PST by Venturer (Keep Obama and you aint seen nothing yet.)
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To: Moseley

And another view on the translation problem:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/11/29/Has-Pope-Francis-Message-Been-Lost-in-Translation


20 posted on 12/01/2013 4:18:00 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Moseley
One truth shines out from the Bible: Jesus spoke to the individual, never to government or government policy. Jesus was a capitalist, preaching personal responsibility, not a socialist. Pope Francis condemned capitalism. Some argue that Francis’ Spanish-language Apostolic Exhortation was mistranslated. But Francis is not among those disputing that translation. Moreover, corrected translations are no better. Francis argues for dependence upon government to redistribute wealth. And con artists in the U.S. are seizing on the opportunity to spread the misery of socialism. Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin this week called Pope Francis on his mangling of economics. Then author Reza Aslan struck back in the Washington Post, claiming that Jesus was a socialist.

Ping for later

21 posted on 12/01/2013 4:18:49 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Moseley

Huh?

You mean he can walk on water and make sense too?

Miracles never end with this guy.

Thank you Jesus.


22 posted on 12/01/2013 4:23:11 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: bunkerhill7

Well, I do think that while poverty cannot be eliminated he could have at least started a foundation to study the problem.


23 posted on 12/01/2013 4:26:19 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: Moseley

I am catholic, but I don’t believe in updating the religion to please unbelievers.


24 posted on 12/01/2013 4:29:03 PM PST by dila813
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To: GreyFriar
And another view on the translation problem:

I'm fed up with the people who try to spin his words into something they are not.

On the one hand Catholics always remind us that the Pope's infallibility only extends to a very narrow area.

However they seem to never be able to accept any criticism for stupid/wrong things he has said.

Its like they always believe he is right on everything and if a statement appears wrong/stupid then it MUST be either a translation error, a mainstream media distortion, or something taken out of context.

This constant spinning of all stupid/wrong statements from the Vatican really causes me to loose any and all respect for his rabid apologists.

I think people would respect Catholics more if they just owned up to the mistakes of their church.

If the Pope is a sinner just like the rest of us, then start treating him like a human being instead of some kind of demigod.

25 posted on 12/01/2013 4:30:03 PM PST by ClaytonP
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To: Moseley

It can be said that Socialism could be considered a multifaceted promotion of sin. First, it is theft. Second it promotes coveting others’ property. Third and the most insidious, is it creates a barrier to spreading the Word by injecting a secular government in the place of the Christian duty to minister to the poor and needy.


26 posted on 12/01/2013 4:37:31 PM PST by Mechanicos (When did we amend the Constitution for a 2nd Federal Prohibition?)
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To: Moseley
It is not right to pigeon-hole Jesus into some kind of box that we have made, such as capitalism or socialism.

Though the Bible is clear about helping the poor and charity to those who are in need, it should be from willing hearts. The Bible especially speaks against those who are lazy and unwilling to work for a living, and does not support them being given welfare.

The Bible does not support forced re-distribution of wealth, from those who work to those that don't want to work. The Bible speaks against tyrannical leaders who squeeze their people of their sweat and labor.

Jesus was not a community organizer. He came to save both the rich and poor and those in between from the enslavement of sin, and provide reconciliation with God.

27 posted on 12/01/2013 4:45:03 PM PST by Moorings
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To: Moseley
One wonders what to those who use the word "socialism" as an insult, prime among them one Rush Limbo, who characterized the Pope's paper as "pure Marxism" without any evidence to support his contention, one wonders what to these people is NOT "socialism"?! Taxation, whether used to build roads or to give away Obamafoams, is in all cases a transfer of wealth. I recall Milton Friedman's glorification of Hong Kong in "Free to Choose". I don't remember him mentioning that most of Hong Kong's housing (80% or 90%, I don't remember) is public.
28 posted on 12/01/2013 4:45:29 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Moseley
Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation explicitly argues for government intervention in the economy (markets) which can only be achieved by government violence or threat of violence. Jesus does not support violence to intervene in the economy.

Ironically, he's all for government interaction in markets…
…unless you're talking about labor markets.

In that case, he (and the whole rest of the Bishops) are all for open borders, letting cheap labor put out of work the original residents of those affected countries!

29 posted on 12/01/2013 4:47:41 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Moseley
Francis was disparaging consumerism, which is not the same thing as capitalism.

I think we can all agree that we are not our %#^*^%$ khakis, as Tyle Durden would say.

30 posted on 12/01/2013 5:03:03 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Who knew that one day professional wrestling would be less fake than professional journalism?)
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To: Moseley

One of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation was because of the papacy’s intrusion into economics. Apparently that part of Jesus’ teaching where he says, “Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God” is ignored by Catholicism. For a papacy they derives its money primarily through donations (mostly from wealthy capitalist nations), produces nothing, and is run by a monarchy, to lecture on economics is pure hypocrisy.


31 posted on 12/01/2013 5:17:31 PM PST by Nemoque
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To: Moseley

Jesus was neither capitalist nor socialist, I believe that is all the Pope is saying.


32 posted on 12/01/2013 5:35:13 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ
Jesus was neither capitalist nor socialist, I believe that is all the Pope is saying.

Nope, Francis is calling OUTRIGHT for government intervention in the base economy. Please read his actual words. (I know it's not pleasant having to think of the office of the Pope in this way, but he's saying what he's saying.)

33 posted on 12/01/2013 5:36:53 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Moseley
The problem with thinking Jesus was a socialist is Jesus was TEACHING THE CHURCH. He expects His followers to be generous WITH THEIR OWN MONEY.

Today, we have the tares and goats saying the government is God and we should steal other peoples money and give it away. Telling a hungry person where the food stamp office is not storing any treasure for you in Heaven, but slipping them $10 for a burger might do the trick. Jesus expects YOU to help people, not force others to give their money the way you think best. Satan is a liar and has substituted government for God and convinced some believers that socialism is kind and full of mercy, only to find out later that is is theft and kills families and independence. Just look at the destruction of the families and the waste of human potential that comes from socialism. Jesus would never approve. To even suggest that anything progressive is Godly is blasphemy. The same people that want to steal your tax money and throw it down a hole, also murder children, sanction sodomy, prevent prayer, promote adultery and fornication, among the many sins that are too numerous to mention. No,....... Scripture was written for people, not governments. If Jesus is the governor of your life, you have the right government. If Obama and his ilk governs you, you are lost and headed for Hell.

34 posted on 12/01/2013 5:39:55 PM PST by chuckles
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To: oldbrowser
"That’s partly what the incident at the temple was all about in Matthew 21, when Jesus overturned the tables of money-changers. Some think money-changers were bankers."
I thought it was because Jesus didn't want the sanctity of the temple violated by commerce.


Yes, that, too. But part of the reason the sanctity of the temple was so violated was that the people buying and selling products and changing money in the temple were ripping people off -- similar to a tourist trap. Worshippers traveled a long way to come to worship God at the temple and offer their sacrifices. When they came there, animals to sacrifice were being sold at greatly inflated prices and those coming to worship God were being ripped off.


35 posted on 12/01/2013 5:46:35 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: chuckles
Telling a hungry person where the food stamp office is not storing any treasure for you in Heaven, but slipping them $10 for a burger might do the trick.

When I worked in the city (D.C.) I bought gift coupons at McDonalds and handed out gift coupons for meals at McDonalds
36 posted on 12/01/2013 5:48:28 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: SuziQ

Jesus is a capitalist. He advocates freedom. That is capitalism.


37 posted on 12/01/2013 5:52:12 PM PST by what's up
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To: LS
So I believe that Jesus set an example of giving for His disciples and therefore can command us to give and it shall be given unto us because He gave.

Absolutely right. And I agree with all of your post.

But I assume you would agree that nothing Jesus ever said (taught) or did justifies in any way taking something by force from one person in order to "give" something to another?

King David said I will not give anything to God that did cost me nothing. If I take money from one person, then I am giving nothing because it is not my money I am giving.


38 posted on 12/01/2013 5:52:22 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: Moseley

Wasn’t it also true that the animal market was in the Court of the Gentiles, and was thus preventing Gentiles from coming to worship in the Temple?

“My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” — Jesus Christ


39 posted on 12/01/2013 5:52:30 PM PST by thecodont
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To: melsec
Funnily enough too - if you read Acts - you will see that the Apostles and their followers did live in a sort of collectivist association where everyone brought money to the cause. Also Paul said that true religion takes care of the widow and orphan this makes us realize along with the freedoms comes dire responsibility.

So you believe that relates somehow to grabbing money by force from one person to give it to another?

I do not mean to jump on your comment, except I do not see why else you and others would make such comments other than you really don't understand the difference between giving your own money to the poor versus stealing someone else's money to give to the poor.

Do you see a difference between stealing someone else's money to give it away as opposed to giving your own money to the poor?


40 posted on 12/01/2013 5:55:16 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: Moseley

I think Jesus would probably classify Himself as a communalist, one who would be most comfortable in a commune.

But you must understand His perspective. All value is from God the Father and God the Father’s resources are inexhaustible. Therefore, we should gladly give all we have to the poor or to the church because God can supply us everything we could ever need.

I think that’s okay if you can find yourself in a society where everyone puts God’s desires above their own and there is no selfishness. However, such a utopian society can’t truly co=exist with our still-sinful state because we still have egos, envy and greed which would eventually corrupt a communal society.

Since that society is unworkable in our mortal state, capitalism combined with charity are the next best option. We work for our wages and give generously to the church and to those in need, not just in cash but with other resources. That’s what I try to practice.


41 posted on 12/01/2013 5:55:21 PM PST by OrangeHoof (Howdy to all you government agents spying on me.)
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To: thecodont

Don’t know. I was not presuming to know or identify all the reasons for what Jesus did. It has simply been taught to me from history that (a) secular coins were not allowed into the temple, (b) one needed to exchange secular money for temple coins to give their tithe or gifts, and (c) the money-changers ripped people off when exchanging money.

Was there more going on than that? I expect so. With God there often was / is a lot going on at the same time.


42 posted on 12/01/2013 5:58:42 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: allendale
Somehow Jesus never preached that Caesar and Herod should be the arbitrators of social justice or that they should have the means of production and distribution.

That might be correct, but it overlooks an important point. In the case of Caesar at least, there was no need for anyone to say that he should have the means of production and distribution because in that place and time in history he pretty much had them already.

Jesus Christ was perfectly comfortable walking on this earth at a time when totalitarian rule was the norm. If anything, we may reach a point in the not-too-distant future where we find out that democratic governance is nothing more than a failed utopian experiment -- and that totalitarian rule is actually a "natural" state of human affairs.

Just something to think about ...

43 posted on 12/01/2013 6:02:13 PM PST by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Francis was disparaging consumerism, which is not the same thing as capitalism.

If Pope Francis was saying that, it would be very different. In fact, my mother led our family to stop giving Christmas gifts -- except for the children -- many years ago. The excesses of consumerism should be disparaged.

But unfortunately that is not what Pope Francis said.

Instead, what Francis argues is for government management of the economy -- a command-and-control Soviet Union style economy.

Read for yourself what Pope Francis wrote. He disparages freedom.
44 posted on 12/01/2013 6:05:02 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: oldbrowser; Moseley
The money-changers were "bankers," in fact.

Mosaic law prohibited the use of Roman money in the temple, since the Roman coins contained the image of Caesar on them and were therefore considered "graven images" or symbols of idolatry. So anyone who wished to purchase doves or other small animals as offerings in the temple first had to exchange their Roman coins for the local currency. The money-changers were the ones who carried out this exchange.

In this sense they actually had a legitimate function in the temple, but when I read that Gospel passage it's obvious to me that they had strayed so far from their original mission and were ripping people off in the process.

45 posted on 12/01/2013 6:10:11 PM PST by Alberta's Child ("I've never seen such a conclave of minstrels in my life.")
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To: OrangeHoof
Since that society is unworkable in our mortal state, capitalism combined with charity are the next best option.

Your comment implies that charity is somehow lacking from capitalism. But both capitalism and charity are rooted in individual freedom.

So tomorrow morning anyone can give money to the poor or to God's work, etc. Nothing needs to be added for charity to happen.

But what will encourage or stimulate people to care about others and to help their fellow man?

Well isn't that what Christianity is -- partly -- about? What if instead of peddling socialism, the Catholic Church did its job of evangelism and taught Jesus' teachings throughout society? And of course not only the Catholic Church, but they just happen to the example in front of us. THe same should be said of every church.


46 posted on 12/01/2013 6:17:55 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: SuziQ
Jesus was neither capitalist nor socialist, I believe that is all the Pope is saying.

We all wish that is what Pope Francis is saying. Unfortunately, that is not what the Pope said. Furthermore, note that he has not issued any clarification or disputed the planet-wide reporting about his comments.
47 posted on 12/01/2013 6:20:47 PM PST by Moseley (http://www.MoseleyComments.com)
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To: Moseley

I have put 3 posst on this thread all decrying the forcible taking of money by the government. What I am trying to say is that we need to take responsibility for our brothers and sisters in this world. It is part of the Gospel - with freedom comes that responsibility. If you are a Christian there is no getting around that - it is not optional. That doesn’t mean that I would agree in anyway about government redistribution in fact I think that it kills jobs and robs people of the ability to earn their own money and become part of God’s giving system.


48 posted on 12/01/2013 6:22:19 PM PST by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong.)
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To: SuziQ
Jesus was neither capitalist nor socialist

So, was he a self-employed carpenter, or did he work for the state?

49 posted on 12/01/2013 6:22:59 PM PST by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month.)
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To: ROCKLOBSTER

Like most today’s corporations he must have a Government Sales Department, which handled such orders as cross making.


50 posted on 12/01/2013 6:25:24 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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