Skip to comments.Ozone Hole Won't Heal Until 2070, NASA Finds
Posted on 12/14/2013 10:38:19 AM PST by facedown
SAN FRANCISCO The banning of ozone-depleting chemicals hasn't yet caused detectable improvements in the Antarctic ozone hole, new research suggests.
Instead, changes in the South Pole's ozone hole from year-to-year are likely the result of natural variations in wind patterns, researchers said here Wednesday (Dec. 11) in a press conference at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union.
The findings suggest that measuring the total size of the ozone hole says little about ozone depletion, and that it's misleading to use the hole's extent alone to measure environmental progress.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
How come no one ever states that the “Antarctic Ozone Hole” is directly above (MOL) an active volcano, Mt. Erebus?
What the article does not point out, is that the ozone hole is more connected to cold temperatures. There have been recorded ozone hole above Siberia.
They should shoot Al Gore out of a giant cannon into the middle of the Ozone Hole. That would fix it.
The Earth has a couple of ozone bald spots. It’s getting on towards middle age.
So “we’ve” been snookered again.
And your scientific expertise to back that up? Godless-muzzy-commie-hippy scientists doesn’t count.
1) The Ozone hole(s) at both poles existed when we FIRST measured.
2) IF we had no ozone thinning, the earth would have NO SEASONS (e.g. we WOULD be a greenhouse)
3) “Ozone depleting” chemicals are not the issue — Dupont’s expiration of patents on them (and therefore the inability to make money) is at the root of banning certain types of cloroflourocarbons
4) IF freon is causing ozone depletion, it supposedly does this by charged free chlorine gas in the upper atmosphere -— and if that’s so, freon as a source pales in comparison to the billions of metric tons of chlorine we put in water (which, by the way is easier to liberate than the chlorine in freon).
IF you don’t believe me about point #2, let me as you a simple question...
In the northern hemisphere, during winter, the cold, cold wind blows down from the Arctic into Canada, while simultaneously it’s blowing into Siberia. So the wind blows FROM the northern pole DOWN (south) in every direction.....WHERE DOES the wind come from that is blowing SOUTH in every direction????? It comes from the UPPER ATMOSPHERE, enabled by a thinning in our OZONE!!!!
It was always an attack on Dupont and other chemical companies. Of course after the inferior replacement chemicals were placed on the market. Then the lobbyists got the FedGov hammers to force the US consumers to buy only the alternative.
It was always ONLY about money based on lies. Sort of like Obamacare.
But in the 1990s liberals told me that the ozone "hole" would kill us in 10 years. How can we still exist when it's still there?
The article is pretty round about in saying that the banning of the “Ozone depleting chemicals” has had a dubious effect on the ozone. In fact, it’s jet streams and wind and cold that affect the ozone.
Once again, the environmental Nazis were wrong.
El Nina, El Nino, the hole in the Ozone layer, the most prominent outcome of these three discoveries, was to reveal that to a large extent this is the most anal period in the history of the human species.
As if these things didn’t exist long before man discovered them, and their impact on global dynamics only started after man discovered them.
Also , there is naturally release of methane in Siberia.
Methane has been shown to be 25 X more destructive than carbon for ozone depleation.
I have an idea ,... let's tax Russia for releasing naturally occuring methane - yeah that'll solve the problem ../sarc
Volcanos emit chlorides?
How long has this been known, and when did they know it?
Yes, I know UV is measured in Dobson units, and Dr. Dobson (yeah, that one the UV unit is named after) announced the Antarctic Ozone Hole existance in 1954.
Yes, I know the Ozone hole size in 1954 was as large as has been reported since. And I am aware man related ozone depleting chemicals were exceeding few back then, as Freon was a new component in refrigeration systems, replacing ammonia.
To quote a great Lady StatesPerson - “What difference does it make?”
What the Great Gore hath announced must be accepted.
Brother, doest thou believe?
NASA is just another fully politicized and compromized government agency living off the fumes of its greatness forty years ago. They can’t tell you if it will rain in Kansas City next week, but are dead sure about the state of the upper atmosphere 55 years from now.
The main problem is that scientist determined that the sun has little variation because they measured visible light and total radiance and made their determination for insignificant variation. Thus they ignored solar affects on the ozone concentration even though ozone in the upper atmosphere is created by UV light from the sun. Their determination for insignificant solar change is now proven incorrect. We have since discovered that UV radiance can vary by more then 50 % during a solar cycle. The problem now is that science has become so corrupt with politics, that it lacks the integrity to admit its own faults.
“and if thats so, freon as a source pales in comparison to the billions of metric tons of chlorine we put in water (which, by the way is easier to liberate than the chlorine in freon).”
IIRC, the oceans are filled with salt water, and high altitude chloride ions are primarily attributable to oceanic evaporative processes and volcanic sources.
Congress attempted to write legistalion controlling atmospheric chloride ion lvele without waterproof and volacno proof paper.
Ozone is a form of oxygen with the chemical formula O3 that is formed when O2 is affected by UV radiation from Sunlight. What is there very little of over the poles during the winter periods? You know that - Sunlight.
I switched to R134 and have been extremely busy with my Trayvon Memorabilia Business.
FYI, I actually don't know if volcanos emit chlorides. I sent a team of government scientists down into the crater on Mt. Etna, and surprisingly, none returned. Since Obama was born in Hawaii, perhaps he ought to descend into Haleakala and check it out for us? He is a bit of an O-Hole anyway.
R 134 is a perfect government solution. Since it is about 20% less effiecient than R-12, components have to be bigger. It is also corrosive, explosive, and is such a teeny molecule it can actually pass through metals. Suggest you follow FL Geezers home and see if they are hoarding R-12 in their carports. My '59 Olds AC needs a boost.
I created the ozone hole with the Van de Graaff generator I made as a 7th grade Science Project!
True that. Most of the ozone creation however occurs in the equatorial region where sunlight is strongest. It then moves via the stratosphere toward the poles. The polar ozone hole sizes, always were a function of the amount of ozone creation at the equator. Scientists assumed it was a constant. Very big mistake.
It seems that actually the problem has been completely solved by the media refocussing on a new disaster. How odd.
Let me guess. Is NASA is in need of more government money, so this is how they do it?
Yet, that's exactly how they came to the conclusion that we caused the hole.
I’ll be 165 in 2070.. crankier than heck too.
I seriously doubt anyone can predict much of anything 57 years out when it comes to atmospheric conditions.
but they take their best shot anyway.. and so shall we.
The ozone hole won’t heal EVER because there is NO SUNLIGHT THERE!!!
I better start spraying my antiperspirant at the sky again.
actually, I’d only be 116 .. oops . new math.
Is it true zots create ozone?
George Carlin was wrong on a lot of things, but he was right on here....
The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet the planet the planet isnt going anywhere. WE ARE!
The 0bama hole may never be fixed at the rate it is going!
So, like all liberal schemes, the Trillion dollar Freon ban produced nothing but holes in people wallets where money once was. The sad thing is that the “wise leaders” in our scientwistic society are the ones making Genetic modification “improvements” to nature.
I would not trust them with a drivers license. Instead they are remodeling the food chain for the entire planet. Gives me indigestion just thinking about it.
All liberals must immediatly send me $1 ever time they pass gas, even if it does not stink. For the planet of course.
It was always ONLY about money based on lies. Sort of like Obamacare.
Yup - and now with regard to certain appliances and mobile HVAC systems (automotive, mostly), there's a push on to replace the previous replacements with a refrigerant named HFO-1234yf. Less of a "global warming" contributor than the current stuff, evidently (see how the B.S. has shifted away from ozone depletion to the current crisis du' jour).
Do a web search for "SAE Interior Climate Control Committee", they're neck-deep in this stuff. It's sad... SAE used to mean something to me. Now the organization is part of the "normalizing" team serving the watermelons' agenda.
I’ll probably get a knock on the door from the EPA for admitting this, but I found a case of R12 way in the back of our storage building last Spring! Bet it might be worth a few bucks...or not.
Just empty it and LOL.
Liar. Nobody sells R134. We sell R134a. Viva la difference !!!
No about this false claim that R134a is ‘such a teeny molecule that it can actually pass through metals’...
Where did that nonsense come from?
At $35 to $175 /lb he should be crying, not laughing.
It’s not fully banned yet. He should sell it.
the ozone hole and the “ozone delpletion” - just another instance of some scientists using politics (because of its grant/funding process/money machinery) in establishing another scientific orthodoxy that was in fact not proven science but mere correlation pretending to explain causation
More like OZONE HOSED. The same CHICKEN LITTLES were running around shouting THE SKY IS OPENING, THE SKY IS OPENING that then moved on to the AGW CO2 SCAM, after they destroyed an industry. No problem, it was a NOBLE DESTRUCTION.
Is that the one you gave to karl rove so he could control the weather?
The ozone layer was discovered in late 40s with atmospheric soundings done by V2 rockets flown at the White Sands, New Mexico range.
R12 is dichlorodifluoromethane, and, yes, is smaller than R134a....but...
I’m pretty sure R134a is 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (you denote it as R134) rather than 1,1,2,2-tetrafluoroethane...OK, OK, picky as they are isomers and R134a probably has some ratio of both...I’m a polymer chemist, so not too familiar with R134a other than I know it’s chemical composition...
And I will agree with you about the ‘teeny molecule that can pass through metals’ comment...that’s not correct...now, heat (heat transfer) can pass through metals readily, perhaps he was referring to the cooling that occurs when R134a goes from the liquid phase to the gaseous phase? But that’s true of all refrigerants as that’s how it works...
Or, perhaps personal experience with refrigerant systems leaking? That always happens as they are not perfectly sealed systems...would be nice, but that’s generally not economically feasible...
The O-zone hole is about to be plugged.
The O-zone is located between the skinny buttocks of the presidential posterior.
And that O-zone hole is about to be plugged permanently.
The O-Zone.......fix it or forget it.
..... well it takes a while ... but it will leak through teenier (scientific term) spaces than good old faithful R-12.
BTW, Dr. Einstein, where does it say that I am to be held to higher scientific standards than Al Gore? (Although that probably explains why "Kenny Bunk" ain't engraved on the Nobel Trophy)
Stop trying to interject factual scientific material into a good/bad argument.
R134a is 1,1,1,2 tetrafluoro-ethane.
R134 is 1,1,2,2 tetrafluoro-ethane
the letters designate the level of imbalance.
No letter means the molecule is balanced.
a means one level of imbalance.
b means two..
The numbering scheme tells you the molecular structure. It was a formulation developed by DuPont (allegedly). You add 90 to the number, and that gives you the number of Carbons, Hydrogens and Fluorines. The balance being Chlorines.
If there is a number in the thousands place, that is the number of double bonds.
So R134 + 90 = 224. So two Carbons, two Hydrogens and 4 Fluorines. Since the molecule is fully specified, there are no Chlorines.
No, I had my designation correct. Lets see if I can put spacers in so that my molecules don’t collapse this time.
Not really “Kenny Bunk”. You too should have your name engraved on a ‘Nobel Prize’. If Al ‘all the ice is gonna melt’ can get one, then so an you.
Just sell your soul to the dark side... they got cookies!
P.S. Limbo molecules? Don’t think so. R134a is about twice the size of R12.
P.P.S. The decision to switch away from R12 (due to the alleged Ozone hole) was probably a bad technical decision. But it has been a done deal now since 1992. Now they want to switch away from R134a to R1234y (to help stop ‘(Al)Globull Warming’. The ban is starting to impact new cars now. But until (we) starting winning elections, this nonsense is not going to stop.
Depending on what grade of R134a you are buying, there will be some level of R134 in it. But that level is in the 0 to 1,000 ppm range. Not worth writing home about.
Yes, the regulations are making a huge mess out of the Refrigeration industry.
The new (global warming friendly refrigerant) is R1234yf... Here is an interesting article on that by Mercedes Benz. Watch a nice hew car go up in smoke.
Roflol. Glad I wasn’t in it.
“ Cars may explode in crashes if EU forces firms to fit ‘highly flammable’ green coolant, warns Mercedes
Mercedes say the ‘climate-friendly’ chemical is highly flammable
Brussels and the coolant’s producers deny the suggestion
By RAY MASSEY
PUBLISHED: 13:15 EST, 15 February 2013 | UPDATED: 13:31 EST, 16 February 2013
New cars sold in Britain and Europe risk catching fire and exploding in a crash because of EU rules to impose a controversial ‘green’ air-conditioning coolant from the start of this year, German car giant Mercedes-Benz has warned.
The luxury car-maker says the new ‘climate-friendly’ air-con chemical is ‘highly flammable’, poisonous and poses a danger both to occupants and rescue services and German government officials now agree.
Mercedes-Benz is refusing to put the controversial new gas refrigerant into its latest vehicles, sparking a major confrontation with Brussels and the firms who make it - both of whom deny any safety risks.
Wheels on fire: Mercedes carried out their own tests on the coolants
Wheels on fire: Mercedes carried out their own tests on the coolants
Today, Mercedes-Benz and its parent company Daimler received backing from Germany’s Federal Environment Agency UBA.
It asked the EU to ‘compromise’ by granting them and other car-makers including Volkswagen and Audi - an extension from the mandatory rules until 2015 if they agree to introduce an alternative green refrigerant based on carbon dioxide, which experts say is safer because it doesn’t burn.
If Daimler is correct, around 2 million new cars sold in the UK each year are potentially at risk. Photographs from the firm’s own simulated crash tests on cars showed that a mix of the refrigerant and air-conditioning compressor oil released under a car’s hood could ignite a heated engine.
This would mainly be a risk if the car crashes, but it is also possible if the coolant leaks for any other reason.
The row centres on the new coolant with the codename ‘R1234yf’ which Daimler argues can start a fire in the car and release toxic hydrogen fluoride gas. It is the replacement for the long-time industry standard, which EU legislators in Brussels have ordered to be phased out from January because of concerns about greenhouse gases.
The new ‘green’ refrigerant is produced by US giant Honeywell and is currently the only one if its kind that meets new EU climate guidelines. The firm denies categorically that there is any safety risk.
Car makers are supposed to phase in the change from the start of this year, but by 2017 every single one of the estimated 14 million a year air-conditioned vehicles that rolls off assembly lines for sale in Europe will be filled with about £43 worth of the new coolant. This will not include the million Mercedes-Benz’s built each year, of which 90,000 are sold in the UK.
Urging the EU to compromise, Jochen Flasbarth, president of Germany’s Federal Environment Agency UBA said: ‘We have been warning about the dangers (of HF0-1234yf) for years. Daimler’s internal tests proved not only that our own fears were justified but also that we may even have underestimated the risks.’
But he added: ‘It’s just not possible to switch to a CO2-based system within six months or even a year, though, so I would propose giving carmakers until the end of 2015 to make the switch.’
Mr Flasbarth noted:’If you switch to CO2 then you reduce your global warming potential by 75 per cent over HFO-1234yf, so I think that justifies permitting a longer transition time for those carmakers that commit to the switch,’
Earlier this month, BMW joined Daimler and Volkswagen’s Audi in resigning from an industry research group looking into the safety of HFO-1234yf, due to concerns over the scientific thoroughness of the investigation.
Mercedes officials said they were horrified by the results of the coolant leak tests
Mercedes-Benz executives said they watched in horror when engineers at a test-track in Sindelfingen in Germany simulated a leak in the air-conditioning line of a Mercedes B-Class tourer using the new coolant.
After releasing a fine mixture of the refrigerant and air-conditioning compressor oil which sprayed across the car’s turbo-charged 1.6 litre engine, they watched it ignite in ‘a ball of fire’ before their eyes.
The substance caught fire as soon as it hit the hot surface, releasing a toxic, corrosive gas as it burned. The car’s windshield turned milky white as lethal hydrogen fluoride began eating its way into the glass, said the firm.
Stefan Geyer, a senior Daimler engineer who ran the tests said: ‘We were frozen in shock, I am not going to deny it.’
A Mercedes-Benz source said: ‘In over half the tests, a significant fire occurred, which could endanger the lives of passengers and rescue teams.
‘It doesn’t explode like in the movies. But there is a boom and a ball of fire.’
‘In over half the tests, a significant fire occurred, which could endanger the lives of passengers and rescue teams. It doesn’t explode like in the movies. But there is a boom and a ball of fire’
Walter Pütz, director of vehicle certification and regulatory affairs at Mercedes-Benz Cars said: ‘The whole vehicle can catch fire and the burning refrigerant generates acutely poisonous hydrogen fluoride which poses a severe danger to both passengers and rescue workers.’
In sharp contrast, the existing refrigerant ‘was proved to be safe under identical testing conditions, he said.
Daimler said in a statement: ‘Due to the new findings of this study and the high safety demands at Mercedes-Benz, this chemical will not be used in its products.’
German carmaker Volkswagen has also announced it is looking at an alternative carbon-dioxide (CO2) based coolant to the new ‘green’ version.
But MEPs said parent company Daimler were putting cost-cutting ahead of climate change remedies charges the firm denies.
Liberal MEP Chris Davies told European magazine EurActive that the firm was trying to ‘frustrate’ the directive’s ambitions: ‘Daimler are evil and I think their CEO should be summoned to the European parliament and humiliated.’
He said: ‘Daimler has apparently discovered that HFO-1234yf is flammable. Well so are petrol, oil and diesel. Of course it’s flammable if you shove a flame thrower under it, which is more or less the test that Daimler is said to have carried out.’
Honeywell today countered the safety fears by publishing a report from safety experts SAE International saying that their new air-con fluid ‘posed no greater threat than any other engine compartment fluids.’
It accused Mercedes-Benz of using ‘unrealistic’ and ‘extremely idealised’ testing conditions.
Honeywell vice president Terence Hahn said the report left no doubt that their refrigerant ‘is safe for automotive applications.’
A spokesman for Britain’s Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) said it was taking seriously Mercedes-Benz’s concerns, adding: ‘At the forefront of all members thoughts is the safety of drivers and passengers in the vehicles they are putting on the market.
‘The additional research is welcome and members will be looking at the outcomes of that research closely.’
Paul Sanders, managing director Fluorines EMEAI, Honeywell said their new air conditioning refrigerant has been proven to be a safe and effective replacement.
It is already in use by the auto industry. It reduces the global warming impact of automotive refrigerants by 99.7 per cent.
Its adoption in cars today would have the greenhouse gas equivalent impact of removing more than 4 million cars from European roads.
He added car-makers had six years to prepare to meet the requirements of the new directive and that the vast majority of automakers have taken the necessary steps to comply
He said Germanys Federal Environment Agency (UBA) only spreads misinformation and said using carbon-dioxide was inefficient and had short-comings adding:It has higher emissions when both the air-conditioning system and efficiency of the engine are accounted for.
Vauxhall, part of the giant General Motors, said it was pressing ahead with plans to introduce the new coolant in its new cars.
General Motors engineering manager for new refrigerants Curt Vincent told trade magazine Automotive News: We did crash tests, computer simulations and thermal analysis and did not observe any safety problems at all.
Many have tried to repeat Daimler’s findings, but no one has come forward with anything that would indicate any concern.