Posted on 12/23/2013 8:41:52 AM PST by kronos77
I would but I’m clean out of Ma Deuce rounds.
Is he #1, 2, or 3 in this cycle?
1, I think.
That’s pretty cool. I know the feeling being a brand new private and having the top dogs around. I was 2PPCLI for a time and 3 tours. I generally didn’t engage too many in conversation that out ranked me significantly.
>>>>knockdown power is a myth.
You can penetrate a human, but nothing remotely the size of a bullet can knock a man down.
You can penetrate certain parts. If you get his spine or brain stem he will fall, but will not be knocked down.
If you penetrate the heart or large blood vessels, comeing from it, the target will bleed out, but will not be knocked down.
Lavoisier the French Scientist who discovered oxygen was sentenced to death. His last experiment was to blink his eyes as long as possible after the knife cut his neck. It took 16 seconds for that head to die....<<<<
Knockdown power is not a myth. It is directly related to a size, shape of ammunition and muzzle velocity.
Learn about kinetic energy.
If it knocks a man down when it hits, simple physics says that it will also knock the firer over when discharged. Learn Newton’s Laws.
It actually does to some extent, indeed in a different way and it is why a shooter is able to sustain it. We are actually comparing apples and oranges right now.
No, it doesn’t. ‘Knockdown power’ as in Hollywood style ‘lift a man off their feet through the air and put them on their butt’ is a myth for man portable type gunpowder weapon sans explosive warheads - it would also lift a shooter off their feet through the air and put them on their butt when fired!
Incapacitation, musculoskeletal damage and the like are real and both can and will cause a human to collapse when shot - but get thrown through the air and knocked down? No. Check out any live test of a ‘bulletproof’ vest.
Then said “knockdown power” it is not meant figuratively. Indeed the higher kinetic energy applied to your enemy the more shocking effect it makes.
RIP.
And the Sturm44 was developed from a Russia design dating to prior to 1920!
Hahahaha...I am sure there is an exclusion clause there somewhere!
ping for later
Love how people act like the STG44 was a Nazi death ray, and the M1 carbine is denigrated as mere handy pistol.
The facts are, 125 grains 7.92 at 2250 fps for the vaunted STG44. Yet the 30 Carbine is 110 grain 7.62 at 1990 fps.
There is almost no practical difference.
Oh, except there is one difference. The M1 is half the weight and twice as ergonomic as the German try. When I held an StG44 I was amazed at the weight and awkwardness of it. The AK outclasses it in every way too.
But 30 Carbine is a far far better round than people realize.
“The .30 cal has very similar stats to the .357 Mag “
Try again, unless you mean 357 mag out of a rifle, or you mean that at 100 yards, the 30 carbine still packs more power than the hottest 357 magnum loads produce at the muzzle.
Also, the new belle of the ball is the 300 whisper. its non suppressed load is, wait for it.,,,,, a 125 grain 7.62 at 2150. A pointed, slightly warmer 30 carbine is the hottest spec op round to be had these days.
Kinetic energy is a fine thing. Yet a bullet that misses has the same amount of kinetic energy as one that hits. Energy lost when a bullet penetrates the back does no damage. Some structures in the body are necessary life, others are necessary for volitional action. Miss an important organ, and you don’t end its function, perhaps ever, perhaps only indirectly after a slow process of bleeding out. The spine is nearly the length of the torso, but also only the width of the tip of the little finger. Even when missed, psychological conditioning (Oh, I was shot, I should lie down!) can lead to greater effect than what biology would expect, or less. One gentleman took a 40mm grenade through the chest, and lived. Another had a crowbar blown through his head by a premature charge, and survived and recovered. Kinetic energy? both had plenty, and survived, the latter without ever losing consciousness!
Because of the complexity of the human target, simple measures such as kinetic energy give misleading estimates of bullet effect. If you care enough to give your very best, care enough to put a few rounds in every identified target.
Ah the old Fedarov! The difference is Hugo made it work.
After Hugo made it work, and the Winchester design team had made it work, then Kalashnikov had the task to make it work again, with Hugo’s help.
my spanish mauser was converted to chamber 7.62x51, but the spanish used a low power round. I have carfully fired high pressure rounds, but the rifling isn’t very effective at high pressure. I get keyholes. After learning what I could, I retired it.
My two Krags still work fine. My most accurate rifle is the P-17 American Enfield. I can touch bullet holes all day with that.
Now he can meet Sam Colt
In America between WW1 and WW2, the US Army toyed with the .276 Pedersen (7x51) round. The Pedersen and Garand rifles were the Army's new rifle candidates to replace the venerable Springfield M1903. Unfortunately, the Pedersen needed a dry wax lubricant to function and it was rejected in favor of the M1 Garand in .30-06 caliber (7.62x63). {A wise choice since America was embroiled in a global war five years after the M1 was adopted in 1936.)
In 1940 the US Army was looking for a light rifle to span the range gap between the .45 pistol and .30 caliber rifle. The .30 M1 and M1A1 Carbine was the result. This cartridge was a scaled-up pistol caliber (7.62x33). In 1944, the US Army type standardized the M2 carbine (selective fire) and a new 30-round magazine for it.
The Germans realized they needed a selective fire rifle to bridge the range gap of the 9x19 caliber pistol and 7.92x57 rifle cartridges. They developed the 7.92x33 Kurz (short) cartridge that saw action in the prototype MKn-42(H) and MKb-43(W), MP-43/MP-44, StG-45, and VG-1 rifles. Hitler also coined the term “Sturmgewehr” [for storm or assault rifle].
The Russians were on the receiving end of the German's new assault rifles and developed the 7.62x39 intermediate caliber for their Siminov SKS-45g and Kalashnikov AK-47g rifles.
Post WW2, the British developed the .280 British (7x43) as their optimal assault rifle caliber. Skulduggery on the part of US Army Ordnance Corps forced the adoption of the T65E3 cartridge (7.62x51) on NATO and the .280 British faded into history. The new 7.62x51 NATO was a product improved .30-06 (7.62x63) cartridge and was not suitable in the assault rifle role because it was uncontrollable in automatic fire.
The last cartridges in the intermediate or assault rifle caliber are the .223 Remington (5.56x45 NATO) and the Russian 5.45x39. The former came about as the result of the US Army's “Project SALVO” and the introduction of the radical (at the time) AR-15/M16 rifle. The latter was the Russian response to the 5.56 NATO cartridge and was fielded in the AK-74 rifle.
The intermediate calibers have reached a dominant place because of their light recoil, accuracy, controlability in automatic fire, and light weight that allows carry of more ammunition. It all started with V.G. Federov’s Avtomat in 1915.
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