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Hospital agrees to let Jahi McMath family take girl
SF Chronicle ^ | 03 Jan 14 | Henry Lee

Posted on 01/03/2014 4:17:39 PM PST by Drew68

Edited on 01/03/2014 4:20:22 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

The agreement, described in the Oakland courtroom of Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo, is the latest development in an unusual battle between the hospital and the girl's family, who has rejected declarations that Jahi is dead as a result of brain death.


(Excerpt) Read more at sfchronicle.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: jahi; jahimcmath; mcmath
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Here's the latest on this story. Looks like her family can take her out of the hospital. To where, who knows?
1 posted on 01/03/2014 4:17:39 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Drew68
Alameda County Coroner issued a death certificate stating that Jahi died on Dec. 12,
2 posted on 01/03/2014 4:19:59 PM PST by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Drew68
"Moral questions have a million answers," Straus said.

But only one correct one.
3 posted on 01/03/2014 4:23:30 PM PST by Dr. Sivana (Five years, my brain hurts a lot.)
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To: Dr. Sivana

That’s old morals.

We’re on New Morals now...


4 posted on 01/03/2014 4:24:54 PM PST by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: Drew68

I notice the SF Chronicle continues to report incorrectly that this young lady simply underwent a simple tonsillectomy. She had a tonsillectomy and uvulopalatopharyngoplasty.


5 posted on 01/03/2014 4:28:59 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: C210N

What I can’t get is the hospital’s and the attorney’s condescending attitude to the family when they might well be on the hook for any negligence during the original operation.


6 posted on 01/03/2014 4:30:58 PM PST by Dr. Sivana (Five years, my brain hurts a lot.)
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To: C210N

In the old days, we called this ‘being in a coma’. The heart continued to beat, but there was no response and (sometimes) artificial respiration was necessary.

I do find it incredible and insensitive that they keep referring to her as ‘the body’. I didn’t believe it until I saw the hospital director actually say it on the news this morning.

Now this girl has had NO nutrition for more than three weeks. For three weeks, she’s been starved while in an injured state. Why is it so important to the hospital for this girl to be dead??


7 posted on 01/03/2014 4:34:46 PM PST by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: Drew68

Put her in a wheelchair and take her down to the car.


8 posted on 01/03/2014 4:35:19 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Drew68

Maybe a weird Munchausen syndrome by proxy going on?


9 posted on 01/03/2014 4:35:26 PM PST by windcliff
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To: Dr. Sivana

They know a suit is coming. Not much that they can do about that now.


10 posted on 01/03/2014 4:36:13 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Dr. Sivana

Because it’s expensive to keep a brain dead human alive. I suspect the family is using it as a sort of punishment and extortion scheme hatched by their lawyer.


11 posted on 01/03/2014 4:36:30 PM PST by Usagi_yo
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To: Dr. Sivana
But only one correct one.

Which is that sadly, she's dead, and has been dead for some time now.

12 posted on 01/03/2014 4:36:58 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Marie

She is neither in a coma nor in a permanent vegitative state. They refer to her as a body because she was formally pronounced dead by the county coroner almost a month ago.


13 posted on 01/03/2014 4:40:59 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Drew68

I have to think that the necrotic brain tissue is decaying, with those degradation products seeping into the blood stream and poisoning the rest of the body. Besides, without central nervous system feedback, the remaining organs must also be decomposing.

I know this is morbid, but does anyone know how long a dead body can be maintained in such a manner? I would think that since she was declared dead on Dec. 12, it is getting close to the limit.


14 posted on 01/03/2014 4:41:14 PM PST by exDemMom (Current visual of the hole the US continues to dig itself into: http://www.usdebtclock.org/)
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To: PAR35

Weekend at Bernie’s?

(OK that was in poor taste, but this is macabre. She’s DEAD.)


15 posted on 01/03/2014 4:41:43 PM PST by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Scoutmaster

This is what passes for journalism these days.

And I’m certain there is far more to this story than any of us will ever know.


16 posted on 01/03/2014 4:41:53 PM PST by fatnotlazy
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To: Scoutmaster

“uvulopalatopharyngoplasty”

I had this done 15 years ago and it was terrible. I bled horribly and still bleed from time to time these many years later. The tonsillectomy isn’t what got this poor girl. Prayers for her family.


17 posted on 01/03/2014 4:43:00 PM PST by Owl558 (Those who remember George Santayana are doomed to repeat him)
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To: Marie
In the old days, we called this ‘being in a coma’. The heart continued to beat, but there was no response and (sometimes) artificial respiration was necessary.

There's a world of difference between being in a coma and being brain dead. People in comas (now referred to medically as "persistent vegetative state") still have brain activity, however little that might be. Their brains still receive oxygen from the blood. In Jahi's case, there is no cerebral activity whatsoever. Her brain is dead. It is not receiving blood circulation. It is decomposing.

Now this girl has had NO nutrition for more than three weeks. For three weeks, she’s been starved while in an injured state.

She's not injured. She's dead.

18 posted on 01/03/2014 4:44:14 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Marie

A person in a coma has a living, functioning brain, and responds to certain stimuli. Sometimes, comatose people are aware of their surroundings, but are unable to communicate or move.

This girl, sadly, is not in a coma. She is dead, and her body is being kept on life support because her mother cannot accept the reality. No one ever comes back from being dead (with one historical exception).


19 posted on 01/03/2014 4:44:21 PM PST by exDemMom (Current visual of the hole the US continues to dig itself into: http://www.usdebtclock.org/)
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To: Marie

So they’re not on the hook for a couple of decades of very expensive care. That’s why.


20 posted on 01/03/2014 4:44:50 PM PST by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: PAR35
They know a suit is coming. Not much that they can do about that now.

They can try not being antagonstic.
21 posted on 01/03/2014 4:44:57 PM PST by Dr. Sivana (Five years, my brain hurts a lot.)
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To: Usagi_yo

My take on it is that this could have been avoided all together if the poor child’s family had cooked her healthy food and exercised with her. They wanted a quick fix for her sleep apnea so they had her airway enlarged. That is so sad. Quick fix for breakfast: McDonalds. Quick fix for lunch: Hot Pockets. Quick fix for supper: Dominos. Quick fix for breathing problems due to obesity: surgery. Now she’s dead and they are feeling quite guitly, prompting this nightmare for which they clearly need counciling.


22 posted on 01/03/2014 4:45:58 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Drew68
Which is that sadly, she's dead, and has been dead for some time now.

Even if that were the question, that would not be a "moral" question. There certainly would be no more than two answers.
23 posted on 01/03/2014 4:46:08 PM PST by Dr. Sivana (Five years, my brain hurts a lot.)
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To: Marie
In the old days, we called this ‘being in a coma’.

No.

In the old days, we called this 'being dead.'

We called being in a coma 'being in a coma.' And the deceased isn't in a coma. She's dead.

24 posted on 01/03/2014 4:46:28 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Drew68

If she is sent to NY or some other distant locale, this family is fixing to have a tough row to hoe.

After all the current emotions are over, they will be forced to either relocate or deal with a daughter who is on artificial support for a very long time.

Whether one agrees or disgrees as to her life or death status, the odds of a miracle are not too good.


25 posted on 01/03/2014 4:48:28 PM PST by umgud (2A can't survive dem majorities)
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To: exDemMom

“I know this is morbid, but does anyone know how long a dead body can be maintained in such a manner?”

Have you never heard of Karen Ann Quinlan?

She was brain dead and kept alive on a ventilator.

Back then in the 70’s it was the family trying to let her die by removing the ventilator and the hospital that refused.

She lived for months until the family won the right to have the ventilator removed.

She did not die as expected and live almost a decade more.


26 posted on 01/03/2014 4:51:11 PM PST by ifinnegan
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If the hospital doctors had shown more compassion instead of being heartless and cold then perhaps the family would have agreed with the doctor’s reccomendation. I get the family’s rejection of it considering the inconsiderate tone from the hospital and its lawyers.

One doesn’t treat a grieving family like non-human pieces of crap.


27 posted on 01/03/2014 4:54:03 PM PST by RginTN
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To: windcliff

Maybe that’s it. The Grandmother is a step removed from the deceased, so she is a bit more clearheaded, just a bit, than the mother. Just maybe the Grandmmther has started to smell money from possible litigation. I think they had to release the host hospital from some if not all liability in order to re located her body. Still, that Attorney probably detects a deep pocket or two or three still available for the gouging. If they do sue someone, I suspect it will be sooner that later, in order to ride the momentum of public sentiment. This may provoke a quick settlement from the party judged to be most at fault. No one will end up satisfied when this story is finally over.


28 posted on 01/03/2014 4:54:45 PM PST by lee martell
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To: goodwithagun

Unfortunately, that’s true of a lot of adults I know also. Instead of losing weight and exercising they’d rather take pills for their cholesteral, diabetes, etc. I know 3 women in their 50’s who have had to have their knees replaced, not because they are great athletes, but because they are overweight. None of their doctors insisted they lose weight.

My own mother supposedly has high cholesteral, high blood pressure and diabetes. She spends most of her time eating at the buffet. She quit doing any walking or exercise of any kind years ago. She is currently taking 9 medicines. My husband has become the same way. Why change his diet when he can just take pills or use a machine for his snoring.

We can’t expect our children to do any better than we do.


29 posted on 01/03/2014 4:56:08 PM PST by beandog (All Aboard the Choo Choo Train to Crazy Town)
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To: ifinnegan
Have you never heard of Karen Ann Quinlan?

She was brain dead and kept alive on a ventilator.

Karen was not brain dead. Her EEG showed slow-wave activity. That's not brain dead. That's brain injured. Jahi shows no cerebral activity whatsoever. None. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

30 posted on 01/03/2014 4:59:08 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Drew68

Don’t feed the troll. I got sucked into it with him or her on the other thread. There is no hope for rational discussion as the poster does not deal well with reality.


31 posted on 01/03/2014 5:02:42 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: ifinnegan
Karen Ann Quinlan...She was brain dead

Nonsense. By all accounts she was in a persistent vegetative state. It would help this discussion if you wouldn't conflate the two.

32 posted on 01/03/2014 5:04:45 PM PST by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Drew68

“Jahi shows no cerebral activity whatsoever. None. Nothing. Zip. Nada.”

You are making up details about he brain waves as HIPPA law requirements have not been waived by the family and the hospital has released no information as per the law.

Personally I agree that she is brain dead, but can’t know, nor can you.

I must call you on your overt disregard of of honesty.


33 posted on 01/03/2014 5:06:54 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Scoutmaster

I cant think of any local News Anchor who could say uvulopalatopharyngoplasty without slowing their read rate down to 33rpm, are they may still get it wrong, winning more ridicule. I studied to become a Medical Assistant years ago, and always had trouble with the word Sphngmomanometer; or Blood Pressure Monitor.


34 posted on 01/03/2014 5:07:32 PM PST by lee martell
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To: ifinnegan
At least get it straight.

It's HIPAA, not HIPPA.

35 posted on 01/03/2014 5:13:20 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: lee martell

Can’t journalists write “uvulopalatopharyngoplasty” and briefly explain it, and broadcasters say “tonsillectomy and additional surgeries to open her airways”?


36 posted on 01/03/2014 5:15:51 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Drango

Karen Ann Quinlan was kept alive on a ventilator for months and that was believed to be the only thing keeping her alive.

She had had irreversible brain damage.

As such I felt this example was useful in answering the question about how long one can exist on ventilator.

Brain death was not defined at the time and the definition that later was first developed in 1981 was in large part due to her case.


37 posted on 01/03/2014 5:16:28 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: umgud
If she is sent to NY or some other distant locale, this family is fixing to have a tough row to hoe.

FWIW, the facility in New York that has been in the news lately, New Beginnings, is an outpatient care center operated by a former hairdresser who offers a "holistic approach" to treating traumatic brain injuries. There's not a single MD on their board of directors. Their web site informs us that they are currently soliciting donations to pay for an electronically-opening door to the entrance of their office.

38 posted on 01/03/2014 5:17:53 PM PST by Drew68
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To: exDemMom

When brain cells die there is generally no bacterial decomposition. The dead brain cells are liquefied and digested by other cells and the empty spaces in the head are filled with liquid.

I knew a child who suffered prenatal strokes and there were large parts of his brain just not there any more, but since he was so young he did very well - normal intelligence, delayed motor function but normalizing by seven.

“Brain death” is different from some parts of the brain bein dead or dying - it refers to no brain waves, no brain reflexes, no breathing reflex.

If there WAS bacterial decomposition, there wouldn’t be these arguments and lawsuits. Death would be rapid and indisputable - cardiac death too. Bacterial meningitis is a fast killer.


39 posted on 01/03/2014 5:18:18 PM PST by heartwood
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To: Scoutmaster

Sorry for HIPPA.

My point stands no matter what the accurate acronym.


40 posted on 01/03/2014 5:18:38 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: goodwithagun; gas_dr
Don’t feed the troll. I got sucked into it with him or her on the other thread.

I see. Noted. Thanks.

I think I'll ping the other individual, a long-time Freeper (and actual MD) just as a courtesy.

41 posted on 01/03/2014 5:28:35 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Drew68; goodwithagun; gas_dr
>>Don’t feed the troll. I got sucked into it with him or her on the other thread.<<

>I see. Noted. Thanks.<

I think I'll ping the other individual, a long-time Freeper (and actual MD) just as a courtesy.

gas_dr, I did not mean to imply whatsoever that you were a troll!!! Clearly, the troll on this thread is ifinnegan (who I won't ping as a courtesy because this individual is obviously a troll).

42 posted on 01/03/2014 5:33:09 PM PST by Drew68
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To: exDemMom

Well, the fact that ‘the body’ hasn’t has any nutrition for more than three weeks might just be helping that process along.


43 posted on 01/03/2014 5:35:00 PM PST by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: ifinnegan

Karen Ann Quinlan was not dead. She was severely brain damaged, much like Terry Schindler. Her brain was fully alive.

A brain dead person has *no* functional brain because the brain is actually dead—no oxygenation, no blood, no energy use, no metabolism of any kind. When removed from a respirator, a brain dead person does not breathe and the heart ceases to beat shortly thereafter.

This little girl, Jahi, has been examined and determined to be brain dead. Although some of the physiological functions of life have been artificially prolonged using the ventilator and many of the tissues remain alive, she is dead. Her soul is in Heaven.


44 posted on 01/03/2014 5:37:46 PM PST by exDemMom (Current visual of the hole the US continues to dig itself into: http://www.usdebtclock.org/)
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To: Marie
Well, the fact that ‘the body’ hasn’t has any nutrition for more than three weeks might just be helping that process along.

Dead people don't need to eat.

45 posted on 01/03/2014 5:47:02 PM PST by Drew68
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To: exDemMom

“No one ever comes back from being dead (with one historical exception).”

Well, here are three more that I found with a ten second search:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/dead-woman-wakes-up-doctors-2041057

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/a-british-car-accident-vi_n_1450113.html

http://www.today.com/id/23775873/

And here’s an article talking about a lawsuit that claims that as many as 1 in 5 people declared ‘brain dead’ are still alive and are being killed by the hospitals.

I’m sorry, but the drs said that I was in a PVS at birth and tried to put me in an institution. I was nonreactive for three solid months. (No reflexes, no crying, nothing) Then I came around.

My cousin was in an accident and we were told that he would have permanent brain damage. It took him a year to begin to recover, but he now has a BS, is married, and has a beautiful daughter.

I’ve had doctors tell me that nothing was wrong, then two hours later, my son’s in intensive care when I brought him back in.

This are people, not gods.

At the very least, taking away the parents’ rights and their sense of control, referring to their child as ‘the body’, is stupid and insensitive.

Just ten years ago, it was OUR choice. That’s why people were encouraged to have a DNR because they couldn’t take you off life support without it.

Now, families have NO options. No control over the situation so they can get a handle on things and manage their grief. They are being told what to do, not given options.

This is California and, as far as I’m concerned, it’s a culture of death. I will side with life, thank you.

As for the whole ‘brain death’ means that the brain is rotting BS that’s being blown about on this thread, that’s not the definition of brain death. People need to read up on it. Brain death means damage to the higher (reasoning) brain or the brain stem.


46 posted on 01/03/2014 5:48:32 PM PST by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: windcliff

One of the drs said that he disagreed with the diagnosis of brain death.

Any mother that doesn’t fight for her child is sick and wrong. Your diagnosis of MBP is totally out of line.


47 posted on 01/03/2014 5:51:16 PM PST by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: Marie

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/one-in-five-brain-dead-patients-still-alive-claims-lawsuit


48 posted on 01/03/2014 5:51:53 PM PST by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: Drew68

I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone on FR lately.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/one-in-five-brain-dead-patients-still-alive-claims-lawsuit


49 posted on 01/03/2014 5:52:23 PM PST by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: Drew68

I heard a hospital in NY is willing to take her.


50 posted on 01/03/2014 5:54:15 PM PST by Politicalkiddo (Daughter of a FReeper; Conservative in training)
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