Ukrainian riot police charge protesters after nation's bloodiest day, death toll rises to 18

New York Daily News ^ | 02/18/2014

[AppyPappy]

But you define “a f*cking clue” as “agreeing with me” so your point is completely meaningless. If the police leave and the mob burns the city, you’ll find a way to excuse that as well.

No matter what, you stand with the lawless mob instead of the lawless police and that makes you noble somehow.

[Dead Corpse]

So... You stand with the lawless police, the Executive ignoring limits on his power, and the Russian attempt to reform the USSR.

Got it.

I’ll side with those who just want to be free from such BS.

[Dead Corpse]

From the "KyivPost"; Feb. 19, 5:58 p.m. The Security Service of Ukraine announced today that it is launching an "anti-terrorist operation." To find out exactly what that means, the Kyiv Post asked political analyst Taras Berezovets. He said that the declaration essentialy means that the SBU -- as the state agency, the successor to the Soviet-era KGB is known -- "can search, seize property, detain protesters at will," without a court order or other legal safeguards. Berezovets, director of Berta Communications, a political consultancy in Kyiv, said that “they can detain and interrogate anyone who they suspect of being terrorist. They can kidnap you from street and keep you in jail without notifying families for up to 72 hours.” The SBU law enforcement officers can also search property, such as vehicles and offices, and seize property at will, Berezovets said. Moreover, the SBU can force mobile phone and internet service providers to cease operations, he said. “With this kind of operation, they don’t need any kind of permission from courts, as they usually do, in this case,” he added. -- Christopher J. Miller.

Compounding tyranny.

That oughta calm things down. Or, you know, not...

[Nifster]

Would you Alex Jones listeners please grow up. The EU is NOT communist nor is it even close to communist leaning. if you want to suggest that they are fascists I would agree. The EU isinfintely better than the Soviet Union (formerly known as Russia). If you do not know that you need to read more

[Nifster]

If forced to choose I prefer Brussels. But I don’t like them either. It is NOT Russia (even though that’s what people call it these days). Putin is the leader of the Soviet Union and is again trying to regain land that was lost at the fall.

I have no love for the current state of affairs. The Soviet Union (formerly known as Russia) is a communist dictatorship.

[Nifster]

You are ridiculous. You think the EU is communist. It is not. You probably listen to Alex Jones too much.

the Ukraine has more than a single dissident group. To suggest that somehow the Soviet Union (formerly known as Russia) is the same entity as the EU shows a lack of understanding that I have no hope of changing

[cherokee1]

Well, you might until you realize who the protesters are and what they have. Most of the protesters are older guys, VET types, not a bunch of long-hairs. Virtually all of them are armed with something. I’ve never seen so many pitchforks and long axes in one place. The police have good reason to be polite at the risk of a hatchet in the skull. At a minimum the protesters carry fighting sticks or baseball bats, also good reasons to be polite. Most of all, the Ukes are not your regular disarmed band or Euro trashes-—they have firearms. Note also that it’s police and not Uke military doing the dirty work here. Those old APC’s you see are leftover Russian vehicles since Ukraine just doesn’t have much of an actual military. It’s not like Egypt where Mubarak had his guys take some cheap shots at the protesters ——these protesters will bite back.

[freeandfreezing]

Do you want the rebirth of the USSR?

Uh, that's what the protesters are trying to stop from happening. By contrast you seem to think that would be a good idea, and are supporting the government who is trying to strip freedom away from the Ukrainian people.

Why don't you watch this young lady explain the situation. You might learn something

I am a Ukrainian

[cunning_fish]

>>>My hopie changie thing is that after all this violence there’s a transformation of Ukrainian minds, death of Sovok and realization that earlier ways of living cannot work any more. That’s the main requirement before the practical decisions can be made

Ahh, see, you need the plan of what is to come after, now.

If you don’t have a plan... <<<

Here we have a difference between Founding Fathers and Kiev mob. It is all hope and change dope for fellow travellers within it. Yep, sure, we who are working have shaped our economy for a Russian market, we who are too lazy to work are living off a Russian paid welfare but we hate them because some 80 years ago a bunch of Ukrainian urban communists led by Georgian tyrant made some of our rural folks starving.

Why won’t you work to build a base for European integration first the way some Baltic states or Poland did at the time? Don’t blame your government, Yanukovitz was in power for only a brief period of time, before him you had pro-Western administrations for a couple of decades.

What are their legacy? A billion-dollar personal accounts in Swiss banks instead of a billion-ruble Yanukovitz accounts in Bank of Moscow? What difference does it make for the rest of Ukrainians?

They are rioting for something they don’t know what and we all know that nothing of value can ever come out of it.

A total economical collapse due to a shutdown of Russian trade is a first consequence, and another series of riots due to your analogue of EBT card not working because of a Russian aid cut off.

Yes, you have a chance to build it from scratch but I see neither plan nor leaders. All we can see is an organized mob and it’s only objective is to burn a government.

It seems like Moldova, Albania and Honduras are your role models, not Poland, Czech Republic or Estonia.

[PieterCasparzen]

There will be billions flowing, even if the Ukrainian people are destitute and buried under oppressive taxation.

International banking will get them floating Ukrainian goverment bonds.

Just like the Greek bonds.

They will buy things from EU and US companies, who will come in like vultures.

They will sell natural resources and labor at cheap prices.

They will get a brandy new Central Bank of Ukraine, which will join in with the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland. The new “central bank” will manage their money supply and interest rates.

Etc., etc.

[Ivan Mazepa]

"Yanukovitz was in power for only a brief period of time, before him you had pro-Western administrations for a couple of decades."
I count 5 years of Yuschenko presidency. And during his time, the office of the president was much weaker than at any other time. Only a lunatic would call Kuchma (old commie red director) and Kravchuk (former communist party ideologue) to be pro-western.

Ahh, see, you need the plan of what is to come after, now.
I began to answer at #106. From what I've seen from the opposition, the list includes
- transferring some of the powers from the central government to the local level
- establish a balance between the presidency and the parliament by transferring some powers from his office to the parliament
- simplify the tax code
- institute complete reform of police forces (these are crooks beyond salvation, 75% of the population distrusts them, so I would just go into a community and give the badge to any first person I see. Invite Georgians
- complete reform of the judicial system and institute the jury system. The conviction rate now is in the high 90s, something is terribly wrong
- cut the number of parliamentarians in half, open the party lists to the public and in the parliament DISALLOW them to leave the party for which they were elected. (For those not familiar, people in Ukraine vote for a party, there are no riding candidates. A person becomes a member of parliament when the party leader gives them the seat. The problem happens later, when this person for obscene amounts of money switches sides and makes the party leader look stupid)
- make a deal with the eastern oligarchs. Threaten them, sweet talk to them, whatever will work. Make them pay their taxes in Ukraine, not offshore

Items below I haven't seen, but they would make sense to me. Again, this is just me playing a president
- comply with the IMF demands (to stop subsidies for the population, freeze pensions, public sector salaries etc.)
- start fracking tomorrow
- review the rate that Russia is paying to transfer gas through Ukraine
- go with the EU trade agreement in 6-9 months if eastern industries need additional time

Welcome to see any additions or critiques

[cunning_fish]

>>>”Yanukovitz was in power for only a brief period of time, before him you had pro-Western administrations for a couple of decades.”
I count 5 years of Yuschenko presidency. And during his time, the office of the president was much weaker than at any other time. Only a lunatic would call Kuchma (old commie red director) and Kravchuk (former communist party ideologue) to be pro-western.<<<

You are talking about people bidding to joint NATO, sending Ukrainian troops to Iraq under US command, who at one time took over a fleet of Russian Blackjack bombers and bulldozed a dozen of them just to please USAF?:) What about shooting down Israel-bound Russian civilian airliner under said ‘pro-Russian’ government?

They were all pro-Russian, sure. /s LOL!

>>>- make a deal with the eastern oligarchs. Threaten them, sweet talk to them, whatever will work. Make them pay their taxes in Ukraine, not offshore<<<

I knew it is all about that. There are finally a few rich people left in Ukraine and you want your fair share.
Now I got it why the Western part don’t want partition.

>>>- comply with the IMF demands<<<

Good luck, but it makes sense to check an experience of nations who did it before:)

>>>(to stop subsidies for the population, freeze pensions, public sector salaries etc.)<<<

Nice receipt for another round of revolution, with just opposite slogans, considering a state of Ukrainian society.

>>>- review the rate that Russia is paying to transfer gas through Ukraine<<<

Yep, keep biting a hand feeding you. Too bad Russians aren’t that stupid and built pipelines to pump their gas directly to Germany and Italy.

>>>- go with the EU trade agreement in 6-9 months if eastern industries need additional time<<<

Do you mean to get ready for redistribution? Or to remove transfats and excessive sugar from their food products which are ok in Russia but no-no in EU? Or to pimp their avionics, targeting systems and engines to EADS instead of Russian Air Force? I guess it has to take more than 9 months to persuade Europeans to drop their Eurofighter program and start building Migs to utilize Ukrainian technology.

I don’t even want to comment the rest, it is pure idealism on your side.

[Ivan Mazepa]

That’s ok, you wouldn’t get. It’s not written for the Russian mind, so keep living in the mud, keep sucking that Putin teat and call yourself the greatest in the world.

[cunning_fish]

>>>That’s ok, you wouldn’t get. It’s not written for the Russian mind, so keep living in the mud, keep sucking that Putin teat and call yourself the greatest in the world.<<<

You got it all wrong and also brought homosexual connotations.
I am not against pro-freedom thrust of Ukrainians but I advise you to learn what is freedom and liberty first.

[Ivan Mazepa]

Sucking teat is not a homosexual reference. Defenceless babies who depend on their parent to defend them from the bad world do it as well.

What does Russian know about freedom anyway? We had Cossacks, you had Gulags, case closed

[cunning_fish]

>>What does Russian know about freedom anyway? We had Cossacks, you had Gulags, case closed<<

Nice try at extrapolation, Mazepa! What about millions of Ukrainian communists, including in NKVD ranks?
You got me all wrong again. I really wish Ukrainians to succeed in their freedom efforts but the way it is implemented and a lot of ideas behind it are fundamentally flawed and set for failure.

[AnAmericanInEngland]

So, the EU poses a more socialist, totalitarian future than living under Putin ‘s foot? If Putin hadn’t come out against the guys, I wonder how big his free Republic fan club would be. The former KGB goon, election rigging president of Russia, which seems to be headed more towards the bad old days, than towards a free market.

[Ivan Mazepa]

What about millions of Ukrainian communists, including in NKVD ranks?

Burning in hell as we speak. Doesn't change the historical fact that Communism was brought to Ukraine when Soviet Russia invaded Ukrainian National Republic. It was foreign, imposed from the outside and Ukrainians comprised a minority of NKVD and the party. So before giving me names of prominent Ukrainian Communists (every village has its idiot) look up the national composition of the early party and NKVD. I might have been arguing the same points at this same forum 8 years ago and stats show that Ukrainians were a minority, sometimes to the extreme, not only in the USSR as a whole, but in the Soviet Ukr Republic itself. It wasn't until the 1950s that Ukraine (which is 80% Ukrainian by population) had the communist party with a 50% Ukr majority

[jetson]

Thousands of Ukrainians were killed by the Russians in the 1800’s and they haven’t forgotten.

[FBD]

“I would put snipers on the buildings. When they tried to kill a policeman, a bullet through the skull.”

Nobody is playing nice now. Ive seen some videos of Putin's boys beating protesters pretty badly. And then there's this news item: “at least 20 police captured by the protesters” Most of these front line police are young kids basically. Cannon fodder. -I'm not sure there's a side to cheer for, its the Eurofascists vs the old Russian communists. It's a lose-lose situation.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg5ru4IIMAArbtm.jpg