Posted on 03/03/2014 12:28:18 PM PST by xzins
I wasn't sure who all the players are in this conflict, but its slowing becoming clearer.
Neo-Nazis: “Svoboda holds 38 seats out of 450 in Parliament. It got 10% of the vote. There are 15,000 members of the party. It is a minority party that does not represent the views of the vast majority of Ukrainians.”
Communists: “In the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary election the party won 13.18% of the national votes, and no constituencies (it had competed in 220 of the 225 constituencies[31]), and thus 32 seats.”
So what we see is that there are two extremist wings of roughly the same size.
We can just as easily paint the deposed President as a Communist as we can paint the revolutionaries as Neo-Nazis by association with the most extreme elements of their respective political wings.
I suspect that the vast majority of Ukes are middle-roaders, and with some good electioneering an judgment, they will choose a NICE conservative government. :-)
Let’s wait and see, rather than paint a whole people with a brush of the 10% Neo-Nazis.
Stepan Bandera was a nasty character whose military formations murdered 160,000 Poles, as well as Armenians and other non-Ukrainians in 1943-44, whom you never remember, after all there is only one ethnic group that’s suffered during WWII, but however nasty he was, he was not a member of the NSDAP German political party which is the only thing that would have made him a ‘Nazi’, just as it is the only thing that would make any German a ‘Nazi’, and most Germans during the war were not members of the party, so, instead of scaring me with the word ‘Nazi’ you you who so liberally use it to describe anyone you consider ‘bad’, merely expose your ignorance of history.
Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin starved millions of Ukrainian peasants into submission because they'd refused to work on collective farms. In 1932 and '33, Ukrainian villages and cities were filled up with the corpses of men, women and children.
Any country that removed the Soviets from power in the Ukraine was considered a liberator, including Hitler. That said, the vast majority of Ukrainians fought against the Nazis.
During the occupation, the Nazis obliterated tens of thousands of villages; starved the residents of Ukraine's capital, Kiev; and deported more than 2 million civilians - mostly women and children - to work as forced laborers in Germany and Austria.
And so we huddle to our crystal balls, with no boots on the ground, no effective president, to wait watch and see what the locals do.......
Interesting. I know Ukes have commies and Nazis in similar numbers. It’s a bad combo. :-S
I agree that the Muslim Brotherhood was Nazi in its sympathies. But first and foremost it was chauvanistically Muslim fundamentalist, and I think that this is why Obama supports it.
On the other hand, I don’t think that he grew up in a milieu of Nazi sympathy, and I think that his sympathies lie more with Putin than with the Nazis of Ukraine. I think this is why he could care less that Putin is taking Crimea.
I don’t see a reason why he would support a (non-Muslim) Nazi group having a beachhead in Europe.
There are only 15,000 Svoboda party members. We have Nazis in the US.
Exactly. Bandera was an opportunist, not a Nazi.
The major appeal of Svoboda is nationalism.
Corporatism was a later 19th century ideology, originally intended by Catholic intellectuals as a counter to socialism.
It wanted to organize society by economic function, with representatives to the legislature elected by economic bodies such as trade associations, unions and professional associations rather then geographic localities.
There is nothing in this inherently tyrannical.
Italian fascism talked a lot about corporatism, and made some attempt to put it into action. But the Nazis never even talked about it much. Their power structure was top-down and intentionally incoherent, so the Fuehrer could play one goup off against others.
While corporatist rhetoric was adopted by some fascist groups, who were partly socialist in origin, I think it is appropriate to note that corporatism was originally intended as an alternative to socialism.
What I always find interesting, is that the Nazis used Ukrainians as guards in the Death Camps, but no Poles, even though they were pretty much the same.
You have to ask, “Why was that?”
My guess is that the Germans knew that if they ever gave a Pole a rifle, the first thing they’d do is use it on the Germans.
Ukrainians in other regions have much more negative attitudes, compared to the respondents in Galicia, towards the OUN-B and the UPA. Only 6 percent of the respondents in Ukraine as the whole express very positive, and 8 percent mostly positive, attitudes towards the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Forty percent of the respondents believe that the OUN-B and the UPA were involved in mass murder of Ukrainians, Jews, and Poles in the 1940s, while only 14 percent, mostly in Galicia, deny such an involvement.
The ADL believes Bandera involved in mass murders of Jews
In the 1930s the Poles allied themselves with France and Great Britain who declared war on Germany when Germany attacked Poland on September 1, 1939 (but curiously enough not on the Soviet Union that attacked two weeks later), and then waited for Germany to attack them. Ukrainians and the Baltics saw how well it worked out for Poland, and they allied themselves with Germany, and not with the Germany as seen by today’s politically corrected history, but with the Germany of the time, the only world power standing against the murderous Stalin regime.
????????????????
Do they think Israel will be safer with a Russian occupied Ukraine???
The same people supporting Iran and Syria???
Are they nuts?
Russians have persecuted Jews, which caused a huge emigration to Israel in the 80s and 90s. French Jews have come under increasingly greater threat.
What is going on in Ukraine today has very little to do with anti-semitism. It has to do with Ukrainian nationalism versus Russia wanting to keep the Ukraine in its orbit. The Russians have strategic national interests in Ukraine, including the maintenance of military bases along the Black Sea. And Putin has dreams of restoring the Soviet Empire.
No it doesn't and I'm glad you posted it......
As much as I hate to say it and as much as I despise the guy, Michael Savage is talking about this specific issue.
I've long suspected that there is more behind the scenes with the armed protestors and pre-made shields attacking the police before shooters finally got involved. And of course the duly elected govt. is now under fire by the global community for what they determine as excessive force.......
This is definitely a can of worms so who you going to believe?
As for me, given the track history of the current administration in ultimately supporting the wrong side, and the MSM refusing to dig deep into the facts but rather print the White House talking points.......
I'm embarrassed to say that I'm supporting the Russians.........
“Can you be more specific as to what their goals are in Ukraine? Erect concentration camps? Invade and conquer their neighbors?”
They have not been so explicit, but their slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” and they propose expulsion of Jewish people and Russians. (They claim the Russians are puppets of the Jews, much as did Hitler before them.)
Their primary goal appears to be expulsion of the ethnic Russians in Crimea.
(Small history note: Crimea because “Russian” due to Stalin’s starving of the ethnic Ukranians and various expulsion efforts on part of the Ukranians -— kind of like how “Arab East Jerusalem” became Arab in 1929 when the arabs attacked and killed the Jewish population there.)
Note: I am NOT saying the Ukranians don’t have a legitimate beef with the Russians. I am saying the leaders of the Ukrainian group (which is Svoboda, despite the alleged minor representation in government) are bad guys.
The 10% is the number of voters. The actual party membership is around 15,000.
I don’t think there is any real question that one of the groups Bandera set up later collaborated with the Nazis and killed a lot of Jews (and Poles).
My point is that Mr. Bandera spent the war in a concentration camp, so didn’t have opportunity himself to do much collaborating.
It also seems odd that the Nazis would throw a whole-hearted collaborator into a camp rather than use him.
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