Posted on 03/05/2014 3:54:07 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
Public discussion on Ukraine is all about confrontation. But do we know where we are going? In my life, I have seen four wars begun with great enthusiasm and public support, all of which we did not know how to end and from three of which we withdrew unilaterally. The test of policy is how it ends, not how it begins. Far too often the Ukrainian issue is posed as a showdown: whether Ukraine joins the East or the West. But if Ukraine is to survive and thrive, it must not be either side’s outpost against the other — it should function as a bridge between them. Russia must accept that to try to force Ukraine into a satellite status, and thereby move Russia’s borders again, would doom Moscow to repeat its history of self-fulfilling cycles of reciprocal pressures with Europe and the United States. The West must understand that, to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country. Russian history began in what was called Kievan-Rus. The Russian religion spread from there. Ukraine has been part of Russia for centuries, and their histories were intertwined before then. Some of the most important battles for Russian freedom, starting with the Battle of Poltava in 1709 , were fought on Ukrainian soil. The Black Sea Fleet — Russia’s means of projecting power in the Mediterranean — is based by long-term lease in Sevastopol, in Crimea. Even such famed dissidents as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Joseph Brodsky insisted that Ukraine was an integral part of Russian history and, indeed, of Russia.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
How about we trade the liberty loving Ukrainians with the Obama Marxists in the United States?
What do you mean by Harridan?
I agree. Our neocons have become an enemy to America.
Ukraine is a big country. I think that it would be well suited to form a confederacy or republic. Fairly autonomous states with little federal power. None should rule over or oppress the others. Of course I think that would be a fine idea for us too.......
....”Russia will not allow all of Ukraine to be part of NATO. It will not allow Crimea to be a NATO base. Not now and not for the next 40 years”....
Exactly!
It’s been aggressive landgrab for Western/NATO/EU’s soft power’ that’s been the destabilising factor across the world in the last 15 years......Clearly over the last few years the West is now carrying out regime change via proxy wars funding,organizing and using “people” to riot or claim they do so for freedom.
This situation would have never happened if the US/EU/Nato had stayed out and stop imposing their agenda for world domination under the Global Agenda....
Russia is making the right moves to watch its own back and giving the US a clear message to back off!
Russia is a ‘central’ player in many dynamics on the World Stage, there is little it can be excluded from, and in fact Putin actually hosts many of the International gatherings, which by the way the International Leaders overwhelmingly agreed it be so.
Europe is dependent on Russia for oil and gas, and the volumes of revenue into European banks and investments off- shored from Russia..... meaning their interdependence is uneven, with Russia having more leverage than the Europeans...and they really don’t object to it being so.
The use of force is off the table because the US interests in Ukraine are not worth a war with Russia....and it can’t be underestimated that Russia cares far far more about Ukraine than the U.S./EU/NATO does.
Moscow also annually writes off $97.75 million of Kiev’s debt for the right to use Ukrainian waters and radio frequency resources, and for the environmental impact caused by the Black Sea Fleet’s operations.
The West DOES indeed need to understand Russia will never see Ukraine as just another country. It’s far more than that and always will be.
The best that can happen is for US/EU and Nato to let Russia and Ukraine determine their agreements and stay out of their affairs..... Ukraine needs to learn how to fairly run the country side by side with one another...and remain an Independant country from Nato And Eurasia both.
Ukraine’s biggest problem is they don’t have Representatives looking out for the country and it’s people as a whole.
...”Ukraine should be independent and not a satellite of either side of this”....
Well true but what does Ukraine got on it’s own? How can it survive without the money flowing from Russia and Europe? They don’t have anything to offer in the world markets...
Yes...Mr. Putin has hired Henry Kissinger to write essays on his behalf
/smh
....”we should be supporting a country which believes it is entitled to dictate the foreign policy decisions of a sovereign neighbor because”.....
Oh come on...the USA does it all the time....who do you think has been funding the take down of so many foreign Governments worldwide.....Libya, Egypt,Syria and others, and impossing our democratic ideas on those nations?
American interference and occupations of nations halfway around the world are considered noble.... But Russian interference in a part of a country right on its border is the supreme act of lawless, imperial aggression?....If we were in Putin’s shoes we’d be doing the same thing...and have to protect our interests.
Any who’ve been watching the Power players over the years know who they are and how they go about using their force and their tactics.
Like it or not Putin’s actions were entirely defensive against the “other players” messing with Ukraine...Basically the U.S. is objecting to attempts by Russia to play a smaller and even far less aggressive version of its own world game.
I’m not very interested in them or Europe right now when my own country is being dismantled wholesale by a kenyan faggot.
Other than that he’s an Egyptian faggot, I agree with you 100%.
I see you Russkies have also trotted out the old canard that the Ukrainians who oppose them are essentially Nazis; Maybe even real Nazis. The old lies never get tired for you Soviet propagandists, do they?
Using Liberal tactics doesn’t work with me FRED....you can do better than lower to that.
Russia doesn’t need a cover for what they choose to do...especially when other nations do likewise to protect their interests.
You need to do your homework about who the various fractions are in Ukraine and what their agendas are...it would also help for you to look more carefully at Geo-politics and the push for Global Dominance.
Oh, how I love good research!
Thanks x 10E6!
Agreed - at least if they can get past this present crisis intact.
The West DOES indeed need to understand Russia will never see Ukraine as just another country. It’s far more than that and always will be.
I'm sure Mexico once thought that of Texas. (etc.)
Ukraine needs to learn how to fairly run the country side by side with one another...and remain an Independant country from Nato And Eurasia both.
Just how in the heck can the Ukraine do that if Russia sends in troops or turns off the gas anytime they want?
US interests in Ukraine are not worth a war with Russia
Correct, but irrelevant.
You tell others to do their homework, and then you make a statement like that? Read the CIA factbook or Wikipedia articles on Ukraine, for heavens sake. Ukraine has PLENTY to offer both in the way of raw materials, agricultural products, and finished, even high tech goods. The problem is corruption and poor market mechanisms.
I live in Estonia and I remember the same propaganda blasted by Russia at us starting from ~1990. “If they would ever get their freedom they’d be coming back in 6 months begging on their knees to be taken back to the USSR”.
Hasn’t happened so far (and is never going to happen), but I guess after 25 years they felt safe reusing the same propaganda believing everyone has forgotten about it.
Still they did. Here is someones translation from a Russian language article.
*** Claim: Nobody in Europe needs Ukraine, they have nothing to offer Europe; their industry will collapse and they’ll crawl back on their knees, hungry and in rags, begging to be readmitted.
Well, the same things were said about the Baltics in the end of 80s and the beginning of 90s.
Literally the same things: they have nothing apart from sprats and agricultural produce, but Europe’s got plenty of those even without them. They have no resources, why would they ever think they’d make it?
20 years have passed, and the Baltics are lost to Russia. And, as everyone probably noticed, nobody’s been asking to be allowed back.
They didn’t starve and they didn’t freeze.
It turned out you could indeed live without the Soviet industry – and live an European life at that. Yes, the Baltics aren’t Benelux, but the Baltics are, undeniably, Europe. So what if these places are still relatively poor, at least they’re living nicely.
We must keep in kind that the Baltics have, indeed, very limited natural resources – so their present state is all the more impressive.
Now back to Ukraine. I’d like to ask you: why do you think that the tiny and resource-poor Estonia could find their place in Europe, but the large and naturally wealthy Ukraine somehow won’t be able to?
Resources aren’t just oil and gas, as we’ve gotten used to thinking. Resources also mean the people, the land, the climate and much, much more. All you need is time, and willingness to do something.
Averill Harridan, old Russia hand.
I Googled him and can’t come up with anything but a small blurb in a 1949 newspaper.
“Harridan” is an unfriendly term meaning a gaunt old horse. They’re usually rich, too.
I don’t seem to recall US troops in Egypt, Libya or Tunisia. Or that their people along with Iraqis and Afghanis ‘proposing’ to join the US as a result of US intervention.
Our intervention = support of a nation’s self-determination.
Russian intervention = support of Russia’s self-determination.
And how many Russians support their government’s incursion? Less than 20%? They know the purpose at hand.
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