Skip to comments.CA Gun Store Owner Refuses to Give Feds Customer List (ATF Seeks Buyers of AR-15 Lower Receivers)
Posted on 03/13/2014 7:42:46 PM PDT by DogByte6RER
Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list
OCEANSIDE, Calif. The owner of an Oceanside store that sells various gun parts to build a rifle from scratch refused to turn over his customer list to federal agents.
Dimitrios Karras, owner of Ares Armor, said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were investigating their business, not for what they sell, but for the people who purchase their products.
Karras said the ATF threatened to shutter their business if they didnt hand over the names of 5,000 customers who have purchased an 80 percent lower receiver (the base) for building an AR-15.
It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications. The base is not considered a firearm if its sold separately.
(Excerpt) Read more at fox5sandiego.com ...
“It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications. The base is not considered a firearm if its sold separately.”
An 80% lower is a hunk of metal that is worked to be almost an AR-15. It requires a bit more work and is considered a homemade firearm which means it can never be sold, only willed.
Short but way more accurate than that blurb.
Do the full auto rules still aplly?
“Do the full auto rules still aplly?”
That depends on where you live. There are conflicting court decisions.
NFA rules apply. All you’re doing by working the receiver is just making a non-transferable firearm that the gov’t doesn’t know anything about.
It looks like this is a classic case of gov’t over-reach after this- http://www.guns.com/2014/02/27/california-gun-parts-maker-assault-city-sign/
The city complains about their signage and suddenly the ATF shows up days later demanding things? Welcome to Obama’s America.
Pure thuggery by the ATF.
I’ll take one of each!
If it’s not a serialized firearm, how would there be any records of who bought what, especially if a person paid cash for it?
They don’t give a damn about the receivers. They want the names for the database they are building in anticipation of the time when some of the American people say “enough”.
The Feds are pressuring the states to hand over their CCDW lists. Which they have no authority to ask for. Instructor in my CCDW class said they had been trying to get the names from Kentucky.
They are expecting some serious dissent and they are preparing to come down on the “non-compliant” citizens when it happens. This is not going to end well.
“Karrass attorney informed the ATF to pick up the receivers Wednesday morning at their Oceanside location, but the inventory was not the issue. The store owner said he will not comply with turning over their private client list.”
Karras’ attorney is his partner in the business. There is a 45 minute video about their dealings with the city of National City over their satellite business location signage. If they’ve sold 5,000 80% lowers, there are probably 200,000 80% lowers out there, because there are dozens of businesses selling them. I guess the ATF is trying to get the plastic one’s because they claim that they are not in reality 80%, but rather finished parts that have had some of the features plugged with another color of plastic.
Speaker John Boehner is shirking his Constitutional Duty by not issuing Articles of Impeachment for B. Hussein Obama.
Removal from Office by the US Senate can ONLY be accomplished AFTER a perp. is Impeached by the US House.
The House is the Police, and the Senate is the Judge and Jury.
First the House must Impeach the POS.
Then the Senate determines if the Impeached POS should be removed from office.
Most FReepers fall in the all or nothing camp and only want a clear path to removal.
Our Constitution makes it very clear: Impeach first by the House, and then have the Senate decide on Removal.
The objective is to punish all those who violate their sacred oaths to defend the US Constitution.
A bi-weekly Impeachment of B. Hussein Obama would be needed to punish him for all of his Constitutional violations over the last 5 years, but I will be satisfied with just one Impeachment.
Obamas Removal from Office by the US Senate would be good for America, but Reids Senate has not yet demonstrated any interest in what is good for America.
Since the RINOs have control of the US House of Representatives in 2014, 2014 is the last year that we can be certain that Obama could be Impeached.
The RINOs assume that they will maintain control of the US House, but their usual desire to lose to Democrats is so strong, that their assumption may not be a valid one.
Impeach B. Hussein Soetoro-Obama in 2014, PERIOD.
“Pure thuggery by the ATF.” no, they wouldn’t do that, its for the children.
“They are expecting some serious dissent” I believe you are correct. Too bad they forget upon which this nation was founded - the shot heard round the world. When our government (King George) wanted to take away our guns, and we said no.
Fully automatic is legal on the reservation -
ATF never bother`n the Mohawks cuz they know they will have another scalpin` war as they did few years back here and in Canada.
One law for Mohawks and other crap for us`n coz the Mohawks take no sht from nobody.
Their 1795 treaties are backed up by machine guns.-
Our 1789 constitution ditto.
They don’t care specifically which one that you bought.
They want the names so they can send them threatening letters saying that they purchased an illegal gun, they have proof, and if you don’t surrender it they will take you to jail.
Our 80 Percent anodized AR-15 lower receiver
is our standard 80 AR-15 lower receiver
with mil-spec hard coat anodizing.
Buy 1-19: $90.00 Each
Buy 20-99: $82.00 Each
Buy 100+: $70.00 Each
Stock Info: 333 In Stock
TO: Whom It May Concern
FROM: Dimitrios Karras, CEO Ares Armor
SUBJ: Temporary Restraining Order Against BATFE
DATE: March 12, 2014
Sir or Maam,
Last week the BATFE Raided EP Armory based on a determination letter that had deemed the 80% Polymer product to be a firearm. The determination letter that the BATFE used to obtain warrants against EP Armory is based on incorrect information about the manufacturing process. The BATFE has been notified of their error and the incorrectness of their determination based on this error.
This week on Monday, March 10th the BATFE threatened to raid us even though they are fully aware that their determination letter is factually incorrect. They requested that we turn over a list of every customer that had purchased a polymer lower from us and turn over the remaining inventory that we have.
Our customers privacy is of the utmost importance to us. I cannot in good moral conscience turn over a list of names to the BATFE just because they unduly threaten us with an unjust raid based on information they KNOW TO BE FALSE!
For the time we are SAFE! We were granted a Temporary Restraining Order against the BATFE on March 11th. The following is the declaration that I made during the process of obtaining this TRO:
Declaration of Dimitrios Karras, CEO Ares Armor
In regards to the events surrounding Ares Armors interaction with EP Armorys products and the threats made towards Ares Armor by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE.) The following declarations are true and correct to the best of my knowledge.
I, Dimitrios Karras, state:
1. During a meeting with the BATFE around the end of 2012 that was unrelated to EP Armorys product, the Agent that was present very strongly requested that I turn over Ares Armors customer list. He intimidated me with the possibility of criminal charges if he was not satisfied. This was the first attempt the BATFE made to intimidate Ares Armor into turning over private customer information.
2. An 80% lower is an industry term for an unfinished receiver that is not considered to be a firearm.
3. EP Armory manufactures an 80% lower receiver made from polymer.
4. Ares Armor purchases and then resells many products one of which is the 80% Polymer Lowers that are made by EP Armory.
5. In the regular course of business I have seen many different 80% AR-15 receivers.
6. EP Armorys product is no different than standard 80% receivers that are sold openly and that the BATFE has consistently determined to not be a firearm. EP Armorys product is in compliance with previous BATFE Determinations and is not a firearm.
7. The BATFE has Raided EP Armory based on incorrect information about EP Armorys manufacturing process. The determination letter written by the BATFE incorrectly classified the EP Armory product as a firearm based on faulty information. The BATFE was under the impression that EP Armory was making a firearm and then reverting back to the 80% stage by filling in the fire-control cavity. At no point during the manufacturing process by EP Armory is a weapon made and then reverted. The solid fire-control cavity is built first and the rest of the 80% casting is made around this core specifically so that their product at no time could be considered to be a firearm.
a. As can be seen in Exhibit 1-3. The BATFE has consistently determined that the machining operations that cannot be performed in order to not be considered a firearm are as follows:
1. Milling out of fire-control cavity.
2. Selector-lever hole drilled.
3. Cutting of trigger slot.
4. Drilling of trigger pin hole.
5. Drilling of hammer pin hole.
b. EP Armorys product is consistent with the BATFEs many previous determinations.
c. At no time during EP Armorys manufacturing process are any of the aforementioned 5 operations in a state that could cause a reasonable person to believe that EP Armorys product would be considered a firearm.
8. The BATFE has been appropriately informed of their mistake. However, even though they have no determination that is based on fact, they are knowingly using their fiction based determination to intimidate Ares Armor with threats in order to inappropriately gain access to information that is private and should be protected.
9. I received communication on or about 3/10/2014 from our legal counsel (Jason Davis) that the BATFE was in the process of obtaining a warrant against Ares Armor based on their incorrect determination of EP Armorys Product. I was advised that the BATFE had offered to forego obtaining a warrant if Ares Armor was willing to:
a. Hand over all of EP Armorys 80% Lowers.
b. Turn over Ares Armor customers private information to the BATFE.
In exchange for turning over our customers private information the BATFE said that they would not raid Ares Armors facilities and would not pursue criminal charges. This made me feel as if I was being extorted. I agreed to their terms in order to delay an impending and unjust raid against Ares Armor long enough to obtain legal protection under the law.
10. I have been unjustly threatened with raids and criminal charges in an attempt by the BATFE to obtain information that is private and protected. The BATFE has expressed interest in obtaining Ares Armors customer list in the past and is now attempting to strong-arm us with undue threats based on information they know to be incorrect.
11. I am now in constant fear for the safety of my employees, my customers and myself.
Executed March 10, 2014 Oceanside, CA
I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.
Democrat fascism in action.
It’s not an illegal gun.
Our local gun shop told my husband during the last annual inspection they had a list of specific customers they were asking about.
We all know this. The ATF doesn’t like others to know this.
It’s sorta how they work. Intimidation.
I keep wondering if DHS and local cops are willing to die on orders from an illegal alien with 7 stolen SSNs and a forged Hawaii birth certificate.
In any civil war, this whole gun registration crap lasts approx 2 weeks until enough Brownshirts get killed and citizens take THEIR guns off the dead bodies.
At that point, tracing the typical M4 used by the Resistance only leads back to DHS or whoever issued the gun to their rank-and-file Brownshirt.
The danger of registration is the islamo-commie illegitimate govt grabbing the guns BEFORE full-on
war breaks out.
“they had a list of specific customers they were asking about.”
NSA at its best!
And the specific customers were doing nothing wrong. But they just wanted to talk to (ie. intimidate) them.
Somewhere, there are instructions for making a gun out of a shovel. I sometimes like to wonder how many federal heads exploded when they first saw that?
Oh, look, I found it but the pictures won’t show. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!
You got it right. The headline on this is totally bogus.
Yet still not accurate. ;)
As I’ve read/heard it it, you can sell it, but you have to serialize it at that time and then run it through the 4473/DROS process.
80%’s sales will probably go through the roof here. I think most of the sellers also sell templates for easy machining out of the remaining metal and with the Jan 1st rules for long gun registry with purchase it’s probably the last best way in CA to have an off record LBR. Prior to this you went through DROS/BG Check process, but they didn’t record the type of long gun (just rifle or shotgun IIRC)
The solid fire-control cavity is built first and the rest of the 80% casting is made around this core specifically so that their product at no time could be considered to be a firearm.
HA! That is genius, and probably why that particular 80% lower pisses them off so much. If the polymer fire control cavity is made first with a different color polymer the final casting can probably be subsequently cored out with merely something like a dremel tool or a drill and fine files. The operator merely needs to stop at the show-through of color from the outer casting and fine work that so the subsequently installed parts work smoothly. Damn, now I want to get one just to check it out!
That’s it in a nutshell.
This is some serious Sh!t.
ATF visited me after registering my LLC as a machine shop. They “heard” I was making guns. I never have and it is quite ironic they showed up a few days after.
Besides the legal requirement to keep records of firearms sales, why don’t these guys shred their records? There is no law I know of requiring me to keep records of my customers. Fill the order, then destroy the record and shipping address.
Ref “impeachment: “....have the Senate decide on Removal.”.....
“Houston, we have a problem”
2nd ping thanks for posting
Yep - all the "promises" that applications for purchase aren't saved/entered into databases are worth the words that come out of Obama's mouth - they are relentless and we wait for the shears....
Everybody needs to start growing steel wool.
Sounds like they did not get a “determination letter” from the BATF before they started selling them. Big mistake. Several other manufacturers sell their own 80% lower with a copy of the letter from the BATF specifically saying that this 80% lower has been determined by the BATF to be a non-gun. I have read from the manufacturers that they often have to change some small item on their 80% receiver in order what they sell in order to get that letter.
It looks like the company did not bother to have the lower reviewed. They decided themselves that it was no different from other 80% lowers. That is a pretty weak from a legal standpoint. I wish them luck, but several other 80% lower manufacturers have been put out of business by the BATF and I expect no different here. Just the cost of keeping out of jail breaks most of them that have been raided.
just machine out all the red parts and it’s a polymer 100.
A great many people buy them over the Internet.
“If someone is so fearful that, that they’re going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all!”
Rep. Henry Waxman