Ukraine is game to you?!?
Posted on 03/24/2014 6:55:07 AM PDT by UMCRevMom@aol.com
The Holodomor — a forced famine in Ukraine perpetuated by the Soviets in the 1930s.
With mounting pressure from the West, Russian President Vladimir Putin has tried to defend his invasion of the Crimea section of Ukraine.
History: Stalin lead a genocide of Ukrainians.
Joseph Stalin and his forces perpetuated a famine in Ukraine known as "Holodomor," meaning "death by hunger." No one knows how many Ukrainians perished, but historians estimate anywhere from 3 million to 10 million people starved to death.
But history often ignores Stalin's reign of terror. ..some historians claim Stalin killed just as many Ukrainians as Hitler killed Jews — possibly more.
Putin... dedicated the Sochi Olympics to his favorite communist leader.
For Ukraine, this invasion just signifies another notch in a long line of abuses.
(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...
My grandparents didn't talk about how they suffered during the Holodomor — a forced famine in Ukraine perpetuated by the Soviets in the 1930s. I have seen pictures though, of them waiting in line for bread at a relocation camp. They finally fled Ukraine in 1943. My uncle was born during the journey somewhere in Poland.
With mounting pressure from the West, Russian President Vladimir Putin has tried to defend his invasion of the Crimea section of Ukraine. Putin claims Russia has a right to protect the former government headed by President Viktor Yanukovych in a "lawless" country like Ukraine.
But many people forget the history of oppression against Ukraine goes much further back than Putin's recent invasion. During Soviet rule in the 1930s, when my grandparents lived there, Stalin lead a genocide of Ukrainians.
“The Ukrainians have a lingering memory of a previous union with the Russians that nearly broke the back of their nation,” Walter Zaryckyj, executive director for the Center for U.S.-Ukrainian Relations (CUSUR) told the National Review.
In 1932, Joseph Stalin and his forces perpetuated a famine in Ukraine known as "Holodomor," meaning "death by hunger."As a communist leader, Stalin wanted to curtail the country's growing independence (declared for the first time in 1918). He considered wealthy farmers, known as "kulaks,"capitalist and, therefore, anti-socialist. Consequently, Stalin instituted "dekulakization," seizing families' estates and imposing heavy grain taxes.He hoped not only to feed his growing forces but also to force Ukraine to abandon their national pride and adopt Soviet ideals.
No one knows how many Ukrainians perished, but historians estimate anywhere from 3 million to 10 million people starved to death. Some eyewitness accounts describe people eating their dogs and, horrifingly, their own children.
But history often ignores Stalin's reign of terror. Currently, Russia doesn't recognize the Holodomor as a genocide, nor does Ukraine's ousted, pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych.While Kremlin-supporters fail to acknowledge the genocide, many countries, as well as the United Nations Human Rights Council, recognize the event as exactly that. Even Raphael Lemkin, the man who coined the term "genocide," used the Holodomor as an example. While we can never call one tragedy "worse" than another, some historians claim Stalin killed just as many Ukrainians as Hitler killed Jews — possibly more.
Although Ukraine declared independence 1918, that government soon collapsed, and the country wouldn't gain true independence until after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. Decades later, Yanukovych has maintained a close relationship with Russia and Putin, a leader who makes no secret of his pro-Stalin ideology. Recently, he dedicated the Sochi Olympics to his favorite communist leader. On top of that, Yanukovych has refused to allow Ukraine to join the European Union and cut troubled ties to Russia.
"For Ukrainians, E.U. membership means more than economic opportunities and mobility. It is about distancing themselves from Putin, who is said to revere Stalin, the very dictator who tried to erase Ukraine and managed to partition it, at least politically,"Andrea Chalupa, who studied at the Harvard Ukrainian Institute, wrote for Time.
Although fewer than one-fifth of Americans feel the U.S. has any obligation to protect Ukraine from Russian invasion, according to a YouGov poll, history reminds us of the need to watch closely. Putin's affiliation with Stalin looks all too clear. And Hillary Clinton, among others, already compared the Kremlin's actions to those of Adolf Hitler.
For Ukraine, this invasion just signifies another notch in a long line of abuses.
Ukraine was screwed three times in the 20th Cen. First when Stalin took them over. Second, when the Nazis rolled in. Third, when the Soviets retook Ukraine from the Nazis.
Now, they're getting their first abuse in this century for trying to break free of Putin's new empire
America likes plucky underdogs. When they fight the Russians, we'll probably end up giving them all the weapons they need, whether or not Obama wants to - Congress will force his hand. But until they fight the Russians, nobody knows if they genuinely feel any kind of rancor. The way this is playing out, a disinterested observer could be forgiven for thinking that Ukrainians are raring to rejoin the Russian empire.
I would never say it’s “irrelevant”, far from it. But i would say that there are some battles worth fighting, some causes worth dying for. I would say that if the Ukrainians don’t adopt a “Live Free or Die” mentality, and carry it through to whatever completion that would entail, then they have no complaint coming.
It might entail martyrdom; but at least they would have brought the world’s sympathy to their cause, maybe even enough to back the Russkies off. Who knows? Maybe if they put up enough of a fight (militarily AND guerrilla resistance), they’d inflict enough pain on Ivan that HE would become demoralized.
Ukrainians have been whining for the better part of a month about the Crimea. The moment they actually fight, public opinion outside of Russia and die-hard Russophilic geographies will instinctively side with the underdog. The problem is - nobody likes a nation of whiners, especially one that expects other countries to fight their battles for them. At the end of WWII, Western observers lamented their betrayal - via the Yalta Conference - of the heroic Poles who fought Nazis and Soviets alike. Nobody lamented the fate of Czechoslovakia, which allowed itself to be overrun without firing a shot.
You nailed it: until Ukrainians start fighting - nobody else will. Giving away their land without an attempt to fight off the aggressor is shameful at least. They need to get rid of cowardly leaders and show some character.
Or, like the Balkans, you learn there are no saints in that neck of the woods.
Like the Bandera-led UPA-OUN that massacred over a hundred thousand Poles in Volhynia, mostly women and children.
And you do realize what today is Western Ukraine was Polish, and the Poles were kicked out of there in 1939 by Ukrainians, at Stalin’s behest. And most of those Poles were either killed or shipped to Siberia.
And the fact is, there are those who worship Bandera and what he did that are part of the new Ukrainian government.
Does it excuse what Putin did? Absolutely not....But let’s have a balanced perspective on history here.
I agree with you. The Ukrainians saw a corrupt president leading them back into domination by the Russians and they threw the thief out. The neo Nazis in the Ukraine feed on the hatred of the Russians but don’t control the freedom movement there. They are a sideshow, a product of when many Ukrainians preferred the monster invading them from Germany to Stalin who worked so hard to starve them and replace them with ethnic Russians.
In their desire for a strong American leader, a lot of people are left admiring Putin’s strength and nationalism. They rather enjoyed seeing our hopelessly inept but arrogant president body slammed by Putin. It did expose even further the trouble we are in with the progressives in charge. That I can’t deny either.
However, it’s time to see the Russian KGB thug for what he is. We need to stop savaging our own military and rebuild the ability to deal with enemies other than fanatical but low tech Muslins. Putin is close to making the Carribean a Russian lake. When even the Chinese with their territorial ambitions begin to look slightly askance at Russia, passive responses won’t work.
I’m not saying we need to go to war with Putin but we have to convince him we could, if necessary. First rebuild our strategic military abilities, put missile defense facilities in Poland and wherever else it’s beneficial. Stop scrap piling our nukes but make sure they’re still state of the art. Take advantage of the pride in military serve our people yet have to improve our readiness. Tend to our actual allies and tell the others to fish or cut bait. Strength must meet strength.
I know this would go against the grain for at least half our population but without it, our own freedom will be a thing of the past. Americans must be convinced once again that in trading freedom and strength for an artificial equality and security ends up giving you nothing but slavery.
The Ukraine is tough to defend, as shown in the game RISK.
Ukraine is game to you?!?
Thank you!!!
We are friends with many Ukrainians and a Canadian whose grandfather literally barely escaped with his life from the Stalinists who were murdering millions. His grandfather (at 17) saw his whole family killed while he was hiding in the house. He was able to not be caught and murdered too, and at nightfall he was able make his way out through the countryside. Somehow he was able to make his way out of Ukraine and eventually ended up in Canada.(The grandfather’s family were farmers).
I am very weary and wary of the pro-Putin freepers on this board who have no idea of who he is or what he stands for, and who parrot the Russian propaganda that the whole uprising in Ukraine was fomented by Neo Nazis.
Thank you again for bringing this to the forefront of our discussions, as a reminder of why so many Ukrainians do not want ANY connection with Russia.
Great post!
Joseph Stalin and his forces perpetuated a famine in Ukraine known as "Holodomor," meaning "death by hunger." No one knows how many Ukrainians perished, but historians estimate anywhere from 3 million to 10 million people starved to death... Putin... dedicated the Sochi Olympics to his favorite communist leader. For Ukraine, this invasion just signifies another notch in a long line of abuses.
West Ukraine wasn't Polish. Two thirds of the population had been Ukrainian. Unless you mean on the political maps in 1920s to 1939 it was Poland. But then why not go 50 years before that when there was no Poland - political maps don't tell the whole truth.
After WW2, Ukrainians were kicked out of Poland (Operation Wisla). Also, OUN wasn't the only one doing the killing, AK was killing innocent thousands as well.
Zhang Fei has it exactly right. Ukrainians must be willing to shed blood to demonstrate their earnestness. The USA and NATO along with the world financial and political community can do a lot to heap pain upon Putin without direct military intervention while working to arm Ukrainian nationals and to lay an economic siege upon Russia including replacing their gas supply to Europe via Ukraine. Russia could be isolated also from Latin America as well as the world over.
Russia likes to project an image of a monstrous foreboding power but fire a few shots at them and they will run and look around to rethink the situation. If Ukrainians can get armed well enough, they can have the Russians on the run within weeks and the Russian people back home will organize to get rid of their Soviet holdover madman.
Once Putin is pushed back on, the Russian people themselves can get rid of their jackal thug, and they will if given the chance. Reports on the ground in Russia express the people there do not want a repeat of the old Soviet aggression and chest thumping. A certain old guard longs for the glory days of Soviet empire but the majority remember the lies and abuses. It is analogous to the USA bringing in persons nostalgic for leaders such as LBJ and Nixon to take back the Panama Canal Zone.
The attitudes today are eerily like those of the 1930s when Hitler rose to power.
The historical parallels are very similar. Hitler sent troops into the Sudentenland to protect German nationals, then annexed all of Czechoslovakia. The world gasped and shook its finger at Germany. Then Hitler took control and annexed Austria, again to protect the interests of German Nationals. The world drew a ‘red line’ at Poland and sent Chamberlain to negotiate “peace in our time”.
Putin is a thug who leads one of the three families that control all of the oil and gas in Russia. He is former KGB who ordered Crimea to be annexed to ‘protect’ Russian nationals who descended from Soviet era Russians that were in Crimea to maintain a warm water port for the Russian navy. Putin is trained in all the evil tactics that the KGB was notoriously known for. He has plenty of ‘evil’ in him.
Putin has designs to annex all of Ukraine just as Hitler had designs to annex all of Czechoslovakia after sending troops into the Sudentenland. Putin has already put Estonia and Moldova on notice that they are next. Pretexts of protecting Russian nationals in Latvia, Lithuania and a retry at Georgia are not far behind.
Putin has territorial disputes with Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Germany (Kaliningrad-Konigsberg), Japan and others.
Hitler was not widely seen as mad man or as evil in 1932. He was seen as reviving German national pride in the face of an embarrassing armistice of WWI. Putin is viewed similarly in 2014 with respect to the Russian old guard that is nostalgic for Soviet power or perception of power.
The WWII allies did not engage in war with Hitler because he was a genocidal maniac, because they did not know this for certain about him at the time. They went to war against Hitler and Germany because of violations of international law and military aggression.
Putin need not be a genocidal maniac in order for WWIII to start. Military aggression can be the trigger. And Putin knows if he uses even one nuke, he is toast.
So the comparison of Putin and Hitler is based on military aggression and violation of international law, and it is a valid comparison. Ukraine can be Putin’s Afghanistan.
Putin could have gained respect of the whole world had he sought international legal recourse for ‘protection’ of Russian peoples inside Crimea and had he sought international recognition of long term leases for the Russian navy. But he decided to act in a manner of “I will do whatever I want to ‘protect’ Russian interests and the world can and will do nothing about it”. Borders are therefore meaningless to Putin. This is exactly the way Hitler thought.
Putin is the problem.
This was low-hanging fruit for Putin, just as marching into the Rhineland was low-hanging fruit for Hitler.
There was relatively little risk anyone was going to do anything about it.
Now, the stakes are a bit higher. If Putin is to take the next step, it will cost blood, on both sides.
Frankly, I don't understand how any Pole or supporter of Poland could view the annexation of the Crimea with approval. Every Russian territorial gain at Ukraine's expense brings Russian troops closer to the Polish border. If you think NATO is an iron-clad guarantee of an American response to Russian invasion, let me point out that (1) Poles will take the first hits, (2) this "guarantee" has never actually been tested, which is why West Germany agreed to Pershing missiles being placed there (they have since been removed) - to tie the US to FRG's fate and (3) costly treaties have often been abrogated in the past, including the one where Britain and France promised to come to Poland's rescue in 1939. For Poland, Ukraine is a vital buffer state, and any Russian gains at its expense is a danger to Poland's territorial integrity.
I’ve said before if NATO goes to war with Russia they’ll fight them down to the last Pole.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.