Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

We want out of Ukraine: Donetsk protesters dig in at government building
CNN ^ | April 8, 2014 | By Nick Paton Walsh

Posted on 04/08/2014 5:49:54 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

Donetsk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Masked men with metal rods and Molotov cocktails prowl the Russian flag-draped balcony, surveying the crowds below. Stacks of tires topped with ribbons of razor wire line a makeshift barricade around the main entrance.

Two days after smashing their way in, hundreds of protesters have transformed this government building in the industrial city of Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, into the self-declared "People's Republic of Donetsk." From the clumsily erected bulwarks to the lack of a leader or concrete plan, the scenes are similar to the pro-European rallies in Kiev's Maidan Square in recent months, with one major difference: Many of these protesters say they want to join Russia and have called for a referendum on secession from Ukraine to be held by May 11.

The protesters who let us into the building are eager to show they are here entirely peacefully, but it is clear they are prepared for a fight. Doors have been locked and stairwells blocked at the top of the building to prevent the Ukrainian military from storming in from above. They've smashed the pavement outside the building to use as stones. A makeshift hospital and temporary cafe have been constructed, and locals are keeping the men and women inside stocked up on food and medical supplies.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: donetsk; putin; russia; ukraine
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-53 next last
video at source
1 posted on 04/08/2014 5:49:55 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

Let me just say that I could care less what happens in Ukraine. I am only interested in OUR NATIONAL INTEREST. That does not mean dieing over there. It does mean a quik nuke for anyone who messes with us. HERE.


2 posted on 04/08/2014 5:53:14 PM PDT by SADMILLIE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

Keep in mind that before Nikita Khrushchev launched his de-Stalinization campaign, Donetsk was known as Stalino.


3 posted on 04/08/2014 5:54:51 PM PDT by Berosus (I wish I had as much faith in God as liberals have in government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

Putin is waiting for a bloodbath so he can move right in.

In Donetsk, they may be willing to trade sovereignty for a federal soution.

But Kiev has had problems imposing central authority around the country. Every one wants their version of the Maidan.

Unfortunately, corrupt people around Kiev leaders and the oligarchs who have plundered the country won’t easily let go of the levers of power.

Its a tragedy in Ukraine waiting to happen.


4 posted on 04/08/2014 5:58:04 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Berosus

Whatever happens, the Russians will come out winners. You’d have to be blind not to see it.


5 posted on 04/08/2014 6:00:14 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop
"Its a tragedy in Ukraine waiting to happen."

Don't worry, Obummer & the EU will carve out a new country, Ukovo, to ensure the "threatened minority" in the Ukraine have the right of self-determination.

One can only hope it doesn't take a 38 day "referendum" to convince everyone else in Ukraine to cooperate.

6 posted on 04/08/2014 6:04:48 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

“Whatever happens, the Russians will come out winners. You’d have to be blind not to see it.”

And the radicals in our own government paved the road for it to happen. The Russians must just be laughing their a***es off at us.

Well....
It is what the Sheeple voted for.


7 posted on 04/08/2014 6:20:24 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf

Ignore them and let them rot in that building until they get mighty tired of being in it.


8 posted on 04/08/2014 6:39:27 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Oppressors can tyranize only w/a standing army-enslaved press-disarmed populace)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

I gather that eastern Ukraine WANTS to be Russian, unlike western Ukraine.


9 posted on 04/08/2014 6:53:36 PM PDT by AlexW
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AlexW

Ukraine doesn’t WANT to be Russian. The Russians need Ukraine, and will do anything to get it.


10 posted on 04/08/2014 7:10:24 PM PDT by KOZ.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: AlexW
This assumes all Russian speakers want to join Russia (not true):
11 posted on 04/08/2014 7:18:29 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.
Here's another map:


12 posted on 04/08/2014 7:44:09 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: KOZ.

“Ukraine doesn’t WANT to be Russian.”
___________________________________________
I am referring only to the Russian speaking Ukrainians.


13 posted on 04/08/2014 7:50:16 PM PDT by AlexW
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.
It's not about language. The dark greens are where there's a Russian ethnic majority...


14 posted on 04/08/2014 7:55:34 PM PDT by FreeReign
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

Useless map. MUCH too general / gives false impresssion.


15 posted on 04/08/2014 8:14:31 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign

True - That’s why I mentioned that not all Russian speakers are Russian supporters. By the same token, I believe there are some Ukrainian speaking Communists (etc.) tho’ their numbers are not large.

Your map is instructive, but I’d like to see a “finer” breakdown, as I’m sure it takes on a more “speckled”, semi-erratic appearance.


16 posted on 04/08/2014 8:22:58 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop

Add Nikolaev to the list of cities with protestors demanding secession.


17 posted on 04/08/2014 8:25:40 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: flaglady47
Ignore them and let them rot in that building until they get mighty tired of being in it.

Bring in the Speakers to play British punk rock.

18 posted on 04/08/2014 9:40:27 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: AlexW
I gather that eastern Ukraine WANTS to be Russian, unlike western Ukraine.

As always in this type of situation what is to happen to the Ukrainians in the East and the Russians in the West. Will there be ethnic cleansing?

19 posted on 04/08/2014 9:46:06 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign

Map in #14.

So, if there are 101 Ukrainians and 100 Russians a section is the same color as if there are 100 Ukrainians and 10 Russians. That may promote a particular agenda really well but it doesn’t do squat to pass on any real information.


20 posted on 04/08/2014 10:16:56 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: SADMILLIE

The East has most of the GDP. Also strong trade relations with Russia.


21 posted on 04/08/2014 11:01:32 PM PDT by sunrise_sunset
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.
Perhaps it does give a false impression -- or at least it's designed to create a different impression than the map you posted. We would have to see the complete data set to really know. The map I posted is general (it also uses different definitions); but, yours could also be misleading. For instance, if the Russian-speaking population is concentrated in cities, then it would appear as a tiny part of the total area. For instance, the following map is based on "area" rather than "population of voters", and gives the impression (at first glance) that the Republicans won the 2008 presidential election in a landslide. What it really shows is that Republicans live in less densely-packed places than Democrats.


22 posted on 04/09/2014 12:25:41 AM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: AlexW

Almost all Ukrainian people speak Russian.


23 posted on 04/09/2014 12:53:48 AM PDT by FBD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign
It's not about language. The dark greens are where there's a Russian ethnic majority...

How can you tell a man from a man by ethnicity, if you reject the language criteria? Pedigree tests? Too cumbersome.

24 posted on 04/09/2014 1:15:49 AM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Rashputin
Map in #14. So, if there are 101 Ukrainians and 100 Russians a section is the same color as if there are 100 Ukrainians and 10 Russians. That may promote a particular agenda really well but it doesn’t do squat to pass on any real information.

I noticed that you didn't make any comments about the lame "language maps" on this thread that are meaningless which promote an agenda.

Are you trying to be objective.

Here's another map that I've posted on this board maybe about 15 times.

And you're welcome.


25 posted on 04/09/2014 6:52:41 AM PDT by FreeReign
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Freelance Warrior
How can you tell a man from a man by ethnicity, if you reject the language criteria? Pedigree tests? Too cumbersome.

Here's an idea.

You ask the person.

It's called SELF identification.

26 posted on 04/09/2014 6:54:27 AM PDT by FreeReign
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign

Put all of those maps together, and there’s no question the way out of this quagmire is to split the most Russian parts of eastern Ukraine from the rest.


27 posted on 04/09/2014 7:01:52 AM PDT by grania
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign
It's called SELF identification.

Well, yes, if during an interview you explain properly what kind of answer you want from people. I'm still not sure that was done when creating the map.

28 posted on 04/09/2014 9:24:22 AM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Freelance Warrior
It's the 2001 Ukrainian Census.

Link

29 posted on 04/09/2014 6:00:46 PM PDT by FreeReign
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

I think you’d have to have a fairly detailed 3D map of ethnic Russians vs. Ukrainians, with population on the z-axis, to get a better idea. The map I posted at best would be a “two wrongs adding up somewhere close”: It doesn’t account for population density, but by focusing incorrectly on language, it also does not take into account that Ukraine is only 17.3% ethnic Russian, and in many “ethnic Russian areas”, the dominance is not overwhelming. (The converse is true in some other areas also.)

And in Kharkiv, for example:

http://www.expatua.com/forum/index.php?topic=13316.msg94149#msg94149


30 posted on 04/09/2014 10:25:14 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: grania

But... According to that last map, the region with the highest % of Russians other than Crimea is only 39% Russian. I suppose one could do the equivalent of gerrymandered boundaries, but even then it’s a mess.


31 posted on 04/09/2014 10:31:08 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

Yes, recall the studies about rats or mice forced to lived in too densely packed conditions? (They go psycho, etc. Not all, but many.)


32 posted on 04/09/2014 10:58:10 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign

Well, my only “agenda” was to show that Ukraine is not anywhere close to 1/2 ethnic Russian, and that the population distribution even if just by language, in the East, is quite complex.

(Don’t shoot me, I’m on your side, or at least the average Ukrainians’ side...)


33 posted on 04/09/2014 11:06:59 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: SADMILLIE

That’s about how I feel too...The US doesn’t have any vital interest in Ukraine yet Haartz article just said the head Military Officer would NOT be excluding the US troops from going to Europe.

Reporters asked again and he basically repeated NO nation would be excluded from troops on the ground if they determine now to do so.

I am livid about this...let the EU handle this on their own!


34 posted on 04/09/2014 11:12:53 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tcrlaf
You know the EU/US/Nato were just asking for things to esculate. I'm more than angry at our country and the EU over this mess....over Ukraine for crying out loud!......Obama said ...."we will not be going to war with Russia over Ukraine"....did we believe him?

An interesting photo...did Putin know even then?


35 posted on 04/09/2014 11:44:23 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.

This has little if anything to do with the population.....this has to do with the active encroachment of the EU/NATO/US into the political affairs of Ukraine and adjoining nations......which began more than ten years ago.

Once US and EU violated Ukraine’s sovereignty and interfered in their domestic political affairs by fomenting, supporting, and funding the Right Sector and Neo-Cons.. the West and Russia Federation were at War.

Putin said in his march 18th speech, and many times before that...

.....“But let me say that we are not opposed to cooperation with NATO, for this is certainly not the case. For all the internal processes within the organisation, NATO remains a military alliance, and we are against having a military alliance making itself at home right in our backyard or in our historic territory.”


36 posted on 04/09/2014 11:57:05 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.
This is what the Kiev Gov did this week when a Russian Representative of Parliament was airing grievances about how Russians were being treated since the take over....they attacked him and a brawl followed....this also happened under the former President when they were attempting to change the language to only Ukrainian....If they can not agree to discuss and settle matters in a dignified manner by their Gov. Officials ...then it will also follow suit on their streets and in their cities.


37 posted on 04/10/2014 12:11:55 AM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.
This is what the Kiev Gov did this week when a Russian Representative of Parliament was airing grievances about how Russians were being treated since the take over....they attacked him and a brawl followed....this also happened under the former President when they were attempting to change the language to only Ukrainian....If they can not agree to discuss and settle matters in a dignified manner by their Gov. Officials ...then it will also follow suit on their streets and in their cities.


38 posted on 04/10/2014 12:11:55 AM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign

Well, this is convincing, I agree now.


39 posted on 04/10/2014 3:11:48 AM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.

Yes, I do recall those studies — reminders are around me all the time, since moving to the city. I’ve come to believe that population density is a major determinant of political ideology (a high-rise city scape is almost a bar graph of socialism).


40 posted on 04/10/2014 11:02:22 AM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: caww

What’s this “attempting to change the language to Ukrainian”? The vote was to have one language for official (gov’t) business, which only makes sense. No one is barred from speaking Russian - even Tymoshenko apparently speaks Russian often, when off the record. The languages are even pretty closely related.

The situation is not markedly different than, say, the Philippines, where English is a widespread 2nd or 3rd language, Luzon speaks and writes (mainly) Tagalog, which is the official Filipino language, and the central and southern citizens speak and write (mainly) Visayan day to day, Tagalog when more convenient or necessary, and English as a 3rd language (often in business and commerce.) Complicating matters slightly are dozens of local dialects, but, even so, I’ve never heard of anyone in RP complaining that a 2nd national language is needed or even a good idea.

Now the brawl — yes, that is indicative of the problems Ukraine faces. My guess is that other Reps. considered some of the allegations lies and (under the circumstances) treasonous, and things went downhill from there. In any event, the country has been left in such bad shape that only very tough measures can save it. I suspect that’s why the interim President refers to his stint as a “kamikaze” mission and (to my knowledge - correct me if wrong) is not in contention in the upcoming elections. It would seem he’s willing to be the scrapegoat for unpopular things that must be done. That may or may not make him right — I just don’t see him as this Nazi type that some do.

http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/ukraines-interim-president-offers-separatists-amnestyeds-epa-photos_330103.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Turchynov


41 posted on 04/10/2014 3:37:54 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

They want out of Ukraine? So, leave. I’ll bet other Ukrainians would be happy to give them the ride to the border.

If they are willing to consider a political settlement, such as what the interim Pres. has just offered, that’s a different story.

http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/ukraines-interim-president-offers-separatists-amnestyeds-epa-photos_330103.html


42 posted on 04/10/2014 3:43:33 PM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: caww

I could care less lik you!! I do care about my backyard. I care deeply. Close the Southern Border before they kill us!!


43 posted on 04/10/2014 4:23:36 PM PDT by SADMILLIE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Paul R.
There were ‘two’ attempts on language...one they tried under this new interim Administration but it was scrubbed before it got to the floor, knowing it would cause way too much division and strife already remaining in the streets. The other was over a year ago perhaps...at any rate they fist fought in the chamber then as well....

I don't think the Russians care if it's 'official' from a Gov. business perspective or not....that certainly isn't what it means to them as evidenced in their reactions on both occasions.

As for the brawl...it was the Right Sector thugs who came storming down the aisle and pushed this guy .....then it was a free fall after that....But the fact still remains...many Ukrainians are not willing to listen to those who differ in how they view things in Parliment...and/or on the streets, and the Ukrainian groups would prefer not having Russians in the country altogether unless they agree with them. The country's divisions are really quite divided.....

This is a repost by a poster on another thread which does say it well....

"This seems like a war between the left, communism vs. Socialism. Ukraine is fighting against Russian control only to aspire for EU's Socialist-tyrannic membership..... I wonder if it's possible for real conservatism to take root in a continent milked on entitlements, it seems their sense of spectrum is very much truncated .... The only right this continent knows is just slightly right to communism which is Socialism (point of fact - Hitler lead 'National Labor Socialist Party')...... As many can attest, Europe lives and breathe on bureaucratic paperwork. Should the younger generation learn how to wean themselves from depending on entitlements and ever encroaching government, there might be hope for their culture, economy, and future."

44 posted on 04/10/2014 5:07:58 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: SADMILLIE

.......(’Close’ the Southern Border before they kill us!!)....

Not going to happen...at best they’ll control it a bit more for commercial and trade purposes but that’s about the it of it. With the Globalist already seeing Canada/USA/and Mexico as one trading block that border will never be shut.


45 posted on 04/10/2014 5:11:44 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: caww

Nope. It will be closed soon.


46 posted on 04/10/2014 5:45:20 PM PDT by SADMILLIE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: SADMILLIE

I would love for you to be right! You know something we don’t? Care to share?


47 posted on 04/10/2014 5:49:11 PM PDT by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: caww

This country and its productive people have had enough. They are not happy and I mean pis6ed. We have been stripped of our doctors— our money has been robbed at all level of government and given to parasites for votes.It is about to blow.


48 posted on 04/10/2014 5:53:02 PM PDT by SADMILLIE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: caww

Both sides’ extremists over-react, but I don’t think that is necessarily true of the average person. Plus — the mere fact that the language proposal was, in your words, “scrubbed before it got to the floor, knowing it would cause way too much division and strife”, shows that those running the show are cooler heads, perhaps.

That said, while the extent of any “radical” activity I’ve been involved with is either here on FR or observing a couple local TEA Party rally’s, if “stuff” here was happening anything like what was happening in Ukraine to trigger Maydan, I’d be out in the streets too, and it wouldn’t be because of some outside influence. Too many people discount just how fed up many Ukrainians were / are with fraudulent elections, politicians who rob them at every turn, and in-your-face corruption at every level of gov’t down to beat cop. You could have packed George Soros, Obama, the EU & company, all under a mile of Antarctic ice, and Ukraine was still going to blow.

As for EU membership, it is NOT necessarily a path to full blown Socialism, tyranny, or whatever. Estonia, with almost no resources but their own people, self-discipline, and starting from what was, economically speaking, a pile of post-Soviet rubble, has a quite nice little free market economy churning along. Their own President even says “the Euro’s are from Pluto”, but Estonia manages the relationship accordingly and effectively.

Poland is a somewhat different case, but is also doing pretty well. Ukrainian Ukrainians, being right next door, look over and say, hey, why can’t we do that? It’s sure a lot better than what we have.

Additionally, reading some of the Ukrainian forums and so on leads me to believe ordinary citizens with “nationalist” leanings not only despise the pervasive corruption, they understand the country will never do well until it is scoured out, and they understand that under Russian influence the corruption will never be reduced to tolerable levels. You and I can preach Ukraine should take an entirely independent course, and I’ve said that in the past, but the more I learn, the more I realize the country has simply been mugged so badly that only lousy choices are possible. Some sort of EU association may be the lesser evil for them.

Internally, an arrangement somewhat closer to how the U.S. was configured after the Civil War MIGHT prevent a civil war in Ukraine, IF Putin can somehow be convinced to leave Ukraine alone. Unfortunately, I believe he will exploit the situation. Putin’s bizarre (to us) but typically Russian attitude of “My dog is bigger than your dog” mixed with paranoia is quite telling.


49 posted on 04/11/2014 12:53:27 AM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: SADMILLIE

Great. And when a radioactive cloud wafts over us in 10-40 years, you won’t have a clue as to how our weakness now caused it.


50 posted on 04/11/2014 1:09:19 AM PDT by Paul R. (Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-53 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson