Skip to comments.We want out of Ukraine: Donetsk protesters dig in at government building
Posted on 04/08/2014 5:49:54 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
Donetsk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Masked men with metal rods and Molotov cocktails prowl the Russian flag-draped balcony, surveying the crowds below. Stacks of tires topped with ribbons of razor wire line a makeshift barricade around the main entrance.
Two days after smashing their way in, hundreds of protesters have transformed this government building in the industrial city of Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, into the self-declared "People's Republic of Donetsk." From the clumsily erected bulwarks to the lack of a leader or concrete plan, the scenes are similar to the pro-European rallies in Kiev's Maidan Square in recent months, with one major difference: Many of these protesters say they want to join Russia and have called for a referendum on secession from Ukraine to be held by May 11.
The protesters who let us into the building are eager to show they are here entirely peacefully, but it is clear they are prepared for a fight. Doors have been locked and stairwells blocked at the top of the building to prevent the Ukrainian military from storming in from above. They've smashed the pavement outside the building to use as stones. A makeshift hospital and temporary cafe have been constructed, and locals are keeping the men and women inside stocked up on food and medical supplies.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Let me just say that I could care less what happens in Ukraine. I am only interested in OUR NATIONAL INTEREST. That does not mean dieing over there. It does mean a quik nuke for anyone who messes with us. HERE.
Keep in mind that before Nikita Khrushchev launched his de-Stalinization campaign, Donetsk was known as Stalino.
Putin is waiting for a bloodbath so he can move right in.
In Donetsk, they may be willing to trade sovereignty for a federal soution.
But Kiev has had problems imposing central authority around the country. Every one wants their version of the Maidan.
Unfortunately, corrupt people around Kiev leaders and the oligarchs who have plundered the country won’t easily let go of the levers of power.
Its a tragedy in Ukraine waiting to happen.
Whatever happens, the Russians will come out winners. You’d have to be blind not to see it.
Don't worry, Obummer & the EU will carve out a new country, Ukovo, to ensure the "threatened minority" in the Ukraine have the right of self-determination.
One can only hope it doesn't take a 38 day "referendum" to convince everyone else in Ukraine to cooperate.
“Whatever happens, the Russians will come out winners. Youd have to be blind not to see it.”
And the radicals in our own government paved the road for it to happen. The Russians must just be laughing their a***es off at us.
It is what the Sheeple voted for.
Ignore them and let them rot in that building until they get mighty tired of being in it.
I gather that eastern Ukraine WANTS to be Russian, unlike western Ukraine.
Ukraine doesn’t WANT to be Russian. The Russians need Ukraine, and will do anything to get it.
“Ukraine doesnt WANT to be Russian.”
I am referring only to the Russian speaking Ukrainians.
Useless map. MUCH too general / gives false impresssion.
True - That’s why I mentioned that not all Russian speakers are Russian supporters. By the same token, I believe there are some Ukrainian speaking Communists (etc.) tho’ their numbers are not large.
Your map is instructive, but I’d like to see a “finer” breakdown, as I’m sure it takes on a more “speckled”, semi-erratic appearance.
Add Nikolaev to the list of cities with protestors demanding secession.
Bring in the Speakers to play British punk rock.
As always in this type of situation what is to happen to the Ukrainians in the East and the Russians in the West. Will there be ethnic cleansing?
Map in #14.
So, if there are 101 Ukrainians and 100 Russians a section is the same color as if there are 100 Ukrainians and 10 Russians. That may promote a particular agenda really well but it doesn’t do squat to pass on any real information.
The East has most of the GDP. Also strong trade relations with Russia.
Almost all Ukrainian people speak Russian.
How can you tell a man from a man by ethnicity, if you reject the language criteria? Pedigree tests? Too cumbersome.
I noticed that you didn't make any comments about the lame "language maps" on this thread that are meaningless which promote an agenda.
Are you trying to be objective.
Here's another map that I've posted on this board maybe about 15 times.
And you're welcome.
Here's an idea.
You ask the person.
It's called SELF identification.
Put all of those maps together, and there’s no question the way out of this quagmire is to split the most Russian parts of eastern Ukraine from the rest.
Well, yes, if during an interview you explain properly what kind of answer you want from people. I'm still not sure that was done when creating the map.
I think you’d have to have a fairly detailed 3D map of ethnic Russians vs. Ukrainians, with population on the z-axis, to get a better idea. The map I posted at best would be a “two wrongs adding up somewhere close”: It doesn’t account for population density, but by focusing incorrectly on language, it also does not take into account that Ukraine is only 17.3% ethnic Russian, and in many “ethnic Russian areas”, the dominance is not overwhelming. (The converse is true in some other areas also.)
And in Kharkiv, for example:
But... According to that last map, the region with the highest % of Russians other than Crimea is only 39% Russian. I suppose one could do the equivalent of gerrymandered boundaries, but even then it’s a mess.
Yes, recall the studies about rats or mice forced to lived in too densely packed conditions? (They go psycho, etc. Not all, but many.)
Well, my only “agenda” was to show that Ukraine is not anywhere close to 1/2 ethnic Russian, and that the population distribution even if just by language, in the East, is quite complex.
(Don’t shoot me, I’m on your side, or at least the average Ukrainians’ side...)
That’s about how I feel too...The US doesn’t have any vital interest in Ukraine yet Haartz article just said the head Military Officer would NOT be excluding the US troops from going to Europe.
Reporters asked again and he basically repeated NO nation would be excluded from troops on the ground if they determine now to do so.
I am livid about this...let the EU handle this on their own!
An interesting photo...did Putin know even then?
This has little if anything to do with the population.....this has to do with the active encroachment of the EU/NATO/US into the political affairs of Ukraine and adjoining nations......which began more than ten years ago.
Once US and EU violated Ukraine’s sovereignty and interfered in their domestic political affairs by fomenting, supporting, and funding the Right Sector and Neo-Cons.. the West and Russia Federation were at War.
Putin said in his march 18th speech, and many times before that...
.....But let me say that we are not opposed to cooperation with NATO, for this is certainly not the case. For all the internal processes within the organisation, NATO remains a military alliance, and we are against having a military alliance making itself at home right in our backyard or in our historic territory.
Well, this is convincing, I agree now.
Yes, I do recall those studies — reminders are around me all the time, since moving to the city. I’ve come to believe that population density is a major determinant of political ideology (a high-rise city scape is almost a bar graph of socialism).
What’s this “attempting to change the language to Ukrainian”? The vote was to have one language for official (gov’t) business, which only makes sense. No one is barred from speaking Russian - even Tymoshenko apparently speaks Russian often, when off the record. The languages are even pretty closely related.
The situation is not markedly different than, say, the Philippines, where English is a widespread 2nd or 3rd language, Luzon speaks and writes (mainly) Tagalog, which is the official Filipino language, and the central and southern citizens speak and write (mainly) Visayan day to day, Tagalog when more convenient or necessary, and English as a 3rd language (often in business and commerce.) Complicating matters slightly are dozens of local dialects, but, even so, I’ve never heard of anyone in RP complaining that a 2nd national language is needed or even a good idea.
Now the brawl — yes, that is indicative of the problems Ukraine faces. My guess is that other Reps. considered some of the allegations lies and (under the circumstances) treasonous, and things went downhill from there. In any event, the country has been left in such bad shape that only very tough measures can save it. I suspect that’s why the interim President refers to his stint as a “kamikaze” mission and (to my knowledge - correct me if wrong) is not in contention in the upcoming elections. It would seem he’s willing to be the scrapegoat for unpopular things that must be done. That may or may not make him right — I just don’t see him as this Nazi type that some do.
They want out of Ukraine? So, leave. I’ll bet other Ukrainians would be happy to give them the ride to the border.
If they are willing to consider a political settlement, such as what the interim Pres. has just offered, that’s a different story.
I could care less lik you!! I do care about my backyard. I care deeply. Close the Southern Border before they kill us!!
I don't think the Russians care if it's 'official' from a Gov. business perspective or not....that certainly isn't what it means to them as evidenced in their reactions on both occasions.
As for the brawl...it was the Right Sector thugs who came storming down the aisle and pushed this guy .....then it was a free fall after that....But the fact still remains...many Ukrainians are not willing to listen to those who differ in how they view things in Parliment...and/or on the streets, and the Ukrainian groups would prefer not having Russians in the country altogether unless they agree with them. The country's divisions are really quite divided.....
This is a repost by a poster on another thread which does say it well....
"This seems like a war between the left, communism vs. Socialism. Ukraine is fighting against Russian control only to aspire for EU's Socialist-tyrannic membership..... I wonder if it's possible for real conservatism to take root in a continent milked on entitlements, it seems their sense of spectrum is very much truncated .... The only right this continent knows is just slightly right to communism which is Socialism (point of fact - Hitler lead 'National Labor Socialist Party')...... As many can attest, Europe lives and breathe on bureaucratic paperwork. Should the younger generation learn how to wean themselves from depending on entitlements and ever encroaching government, there might be hope for their culture, economy, and future."
.......(’Close’ the Southern Border before they kill us!!)....
Not going to happen...at best they’ll control it a bit more for commercial and trade purposes but that’s about the it of it. With the Globalist already seeing Canada/USA/and Mexico as one trading block that border will never be shut.
Nope. It will be closed soon.
I would love for you to be right! You know something we don’t? Care to share?
This country and its productive people have had enough. They are not happy and I mean pis6ed. We have been stripped of our doctors— our money has been robbed at all level of government and given to parasites for votes.It is about to blow.
Both sides’ extremists over-react, but I don’t think that is necessarily true of the average person. Plus — the mere fact that the language proposal was, in your words, “scrubbed before it got to the floor, knowing it would cause way too much division and strife”, shows that those running the show are cooler heads, perhaps.
That said, while the extent of any “radical” activity I’ve been involved with is either here on FR or observing a couple local TEA Party rally’s, if “stuff” here was happening anything like what was happening in Ukraine to trigger Maydan, I’d be out in the streets too, and it wouldn’t be because of some outside influence. Too many people discount just how fed up many Ukrainians were / are with fraudulent elections, politicians who rob them at every turn, and in-your-face corruption at every level of gov’t down to beat cop. You could have packed George Soros, Obama, the EU & company, all under a mile of Antarctic ice, and Ukraine was still going to blow.
As for EU membership, it is NOT necessarily a path to full blown Socialism, tyranny, or whatever. Estonia, with almost no resources but their own people, self-discipline, and starting from what was, economically speaking, a pile of post-Soviet rubble, has a quite nice little free market economy churning along. Their own President even says “the Euro’s are from Pluto”, but Estonia manages the relationship accordingly and effectively.
Poland is a somewhat different case, but is also doing pretty well. Ukrainian Ukrainians, being right next door, look over and say, hey, why can’t we do that? It’s sure a lot better than what we have.
Additionally, reading some of the Ukrainian forums and so on leads me to believe ordinary citizens with “nationalist” leanings not only despise the pervasive corruption, they understand the country will never do well until it is scoured out, and they understand that under Russian influence the corruption will never be reduced to tolerable levels. You and I can preach Ukraine should take an entirely independent course, and I’ve said that in the past, but the more I learn, the more I realize the country has simply been mugged so badly that only lousy choices are possible. Some sort of EU association may be the lesser evil for them.
Internally, an arrangement somewhat closer to how the U.S. was configured after the Civil War MIGHT prevent a civil war in Ukraine, IF Putin can somehow be convinced to leave Ukraine alone. Unfortunately, I believe he will exploit the situation. Putin’s bizarre (to us) but typically Russian attitude of “My dog is bigger than your dog” mixed with paranoia is quite telling.
Great. And when a radioactive cloud wafts over us in 10-40 years, you won’t have a clue as to how our weakness now caused it.