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Without A Real Coronavirus Vaccine, Herd Immunity Is Our Only Hope
The Federalist ^ | July 21, 2020 | Joy Pullman

Posted on 07/21/2020 7:34:01 AM PDT by Kaslin

Herd immunity is exactly what the spike in cases indicates is developing, and we need it to continue.


Politicians have been reimposing and maintaining lockdowns and mask mandates due to media furor over “spikes” in coronavirus cases. This has happened in 21 states and many more localities, says The New York Times. One of the many problems with this is that the nation needs people to keep getting coronavirus.

That’s because coronavirus spread is a natural vaccine that protects those who survive — which is the vast majority — and even those who don’t catch it, through herd immunity. This natural vaccine is our only antidote to the virus until a manufactured vaccine can be made, a process that experts say is still at least a year away, and possibly as many as four years or even never.

As an article in The National Interest by two researchers put it, “The Coronavirus Will Be With Us For Years to Come.” The article notes that plain physical realities will likely prevent any vaccine from being widely available for possibly four years:

[E]ven after a vaccine is found to be safe and effective, it will take a long time before it is mass-produced and introduced because of the challenges posed by producing billions of vaccines. The Strategic National Stockpile has only 2 percent of the 650 million to 850 million needles and syringes needed for mass vaccination. Shortages in silica sand, needed to make the medical-grade vials, are expected to slow production. According to Ryan Cross, ‘No company currently has the capacity to make enough vaccine for the entire U.S., let alone the world.’ Some estimate that mass vaccinations could take four years.

That’s even if an effective vaccine can be found. Coronaviruses are notoriously difficult to pre-empt with vaccines. The seasonal flu vaccine, for example, which also aims at various coronaviruses, can be as effective as 3 to 9 percent — or barely useful at all.

We vaccinate because the more people who develop resistance to a disease, the more likely a disease is to fade or die from lack of hosts. This is called herd immunity. Herd immunity can be developed by vaccinating widely, or from people getting a disease and surviving it, or some combination of the two.

Since we do not have a vaccine anywhere in our near future, if at all, the only other public health strategy we have for reducing the coronavirus toll is for as many people as possible to get and survive it. This was part of the rationale behind the “flatten the curve” campaign that baited Americans into lockdowns until it was switched out for “any spread of the disease justifies locking down every activity forever,” a criterion we do not use for any other risk on the planet.

Further, the current increase in coronavirus cases while the rate of coronavirus deaths declines may suggest either that some amount herd immunity has beeen reached, our massive increase in testing is showing the disease to be far less dangerous than we at first thought, or some combination of the two.

Regardless, the latest infection “spike” has not been accompanied by a massive death spike, which means the lethality of this disease is registering significantly lower than it did three months ago. A rise in cases without a matching increase in deaths is something we should celebrate, not least because it likely protects more elderly and other vulnerable people from death due to rising immunity.

A reader just sent these charts – which graph the 7-day-rolling average of US #Covid deaths against the number of new positive tests 10 and 16 days before. As you can see, in March/April, deaths followed cases closely; now deaths have hardly moved despite a huge rise in cases… pic.twitter.com/lOPBqMnh9f

— Alex Berenson (@AlexBerenson) July 17, 2020

As “flatten the curve” implies, keeping people hiding in their basements slows the progression of the virus to essentially bail out hospitals that put much, much more energy into pushing for monopolies on taxpayer dollars than preparing for a pandemic they knew was coming. Maintaining virus spread below local health-care capacity may be reasonable. But attempting to stop coronavirus altogether is idiotic.

Yet that’s what politicians and the media indicate is their new goal. The proof is their wild reactions to the health necessity of increased coronavirus cases, which are now occurring while the nation continues to have huge amounts of excess hospital and other health-care capacity.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom locked down his state again earlier this month, reversing an economic reopening for the world’s fifth-largest economy. Yesterday he banned schools in most of the state, including private schools, from offering in-person instruction for months to millions of children.

Numerous cities have taken similar steps, including in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Durham, North Carolina. This will make working nearly impossible for the parents of all these children, further crippling local economies. The feckless leaders of these localities should not be bailed out for their terrible decisions, either.

Many small businesses that survived the first lockdowns, at least for now, will not survive the second, nor will they survive media fearmongering keeping people from frequenting businesses and schools even in states with technically looser rules. Small businesses are the nation’s economic engine and employ nearly half the working population. Untold thousands of people will get sick and die if we engineer another Great Depression that causes people to lose health insurance and the ability to pay medical bills and get care for chronic conditions.

Lockdowns themselves also increase the death toll by delaying herd immunity.

“[I]f we stop the quarantine for all low-risk people now, herd immunity would develop more quickly,” wrote an academic physician in April for The Federalist. Herd immunity is exactly what the spike in cases indicates is developing, and we need it to continue. The alternative is not just economic and consequently national suicide from tanking an economy already running on quantitative easing, it’s actually more deaths, the physician pointed out:

A full quarantine will result in the deaths of more elderly and medically ill people because more of them will become infected. A partial quarantine [of at-risk people] would likely result in a greater number of mild infections in young and healthy individuals upfront (but not total).

How many more elderly or medically ill people will die due to a full quarantine? It is hard to say, but a conservative estimate would be 5-10 times the number of young and healthy people who may die from a partial quarantine, based on fatality rates published by the CDC.

Look, we have two main options for managing this disease. One is to keep everyone in their homes indefinitely — not for the initially promised two weeks, not for the later promised few months, but indefinitely. The second is to protect high-risk people while the rest of us more or less go about our business and check into the hospital if we pick the coronavirus lottery ticket that gives us worse symptoms than the overwhelming majority of those stricken so far.

Staying home indefinitely is not a viable option for anyone who is not independently wealthy. We can pretend we are independently wealthy by stealing trillions from other people’s children, at least for a while, like Americans do now. But there is a natural limit to that also, and we have reached it even if we cannot see it all yet, like the first few hours of an ocean liner crashing into an iceberg.

It’s time to get back to life and stop pretending it’s possible to hide from this virus. We are all going to get it, sooner or later, and we have to. The herd immunity this will produce, far more than masks, is what will really protect the vulnerable.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: coronavirus; covid19; herdimmunity; immunity; infectiousdiseases; lockdowns; maskmandates; publichealth; science; wuhanflu; wuhanvirus
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To: cba123

Herd Immunity also requires that post infection antibodies remain long-term. The jury is still out on that one, so herd immunity may not be possible with covid. That being said there are a couple of vaccines showing promise. Even if immunity wanes after a while, boosters can be given, especially to those most vulnerable to complications. This is similar to the pneumonia shot.


21 posted on 07/21/2020 8:17:57 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Kaslin

If they do come up with a vaccine it won’t stop it many won’t use it and they will do as they please it’s why it’s spreading so fast now.


22 posted on 07/21/2020 8:19:33 AM PDT by Vaduz (women and children to be impacIQ of chimpsted the most.)
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To: longfellowsmuse

Sorry, if no immunity by exposure and and an immune response, then vaccine won’t succeed either - unless you are talking about getting a booster every several months or so. The principle is the same. If immunity wears off, then so does vaccine. This is the principle way I knew Fauci was lying early on when he said that he was not sure if immunity lasted, and at the same time was certain for a quick vaccine.


23 posted on 07/21/2020 8:22:55 AM PDT by safisoft
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To: Antoninus

I’ve been beating this drum too. Anyone who honestly believes that a widespread, low risk, affordable vaccine is just months away is ready to buy that bridge in NY.

We know the demand by some to extend lockdowns is not about health it’s about November.


24 posted on 07/21/2020 8:26:19 AM PDT by lastchance (Credo.)
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To: Kaslin
The Strategic National Stockpile has only 2 percent of the 650 million to 850 million needles and syringes needed for mass vaccination. Shortages in silica sand, needed to make the medical-grade vials, are expected to slow production.

DoD and HHS have already awarded contracts for fillable injectors and needles. These will be filled with the approved vaccine(s). No vials. No syringes. It's part of “Project Jumpstart" and is invoking the Defense Production Act. If a vaccine is available, they expect to fill 100 million this year and 500 million in 2021.

If they can't come up with a long lasting vaccine, it's not clear that heard immunity will happen. The Wuhan Virus may become endemic, like seasonal flus and colds.

25 posted on 07/21/2020 8:27:05 AM PDT by IndispensableDestiny
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To: Stingray51

Something like 8,000 people die in the USA every day. It has been reported that about 400 people died yesterday of Coronavirus. That means that about 95% of the Americans who died yesterday died of something other than Coronavirus. These are very rough approximations (not accounting for who would and would not have died anyway) but provide some perspective.

In New York State (population of 20m, 6% of the country’s 325m), about 500 people die every day. 8 people died in NYS of Coronavirus yesterday.

In crisis-torn Texas (population 30m, 9% of the USA), something like 750 people die every day. Last week, at its worst, there were a reported 174 Covid deaths in a single day in Texas, but that number was down to 65 yesterday. So yesterday, over 90% of the people who died in Texas, died of something other than Covid.

These are just back of the envelope approximations based on a state’s percentage of the US population, assuming that deaths are spread evenly across the year and the country. But my point is that the situation ranges from no longer being much of an issue at all in some places (such as NY) to being a significant but in no way catastrophic issue in other places (such as Texas).

People need to get a grip and let the economy function, kids go back to school and sports resume.


26 posted on 07/21/2020 8:30:27 AM PDT by Stingray51
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To: cba123

“Herd” immunity means, we failed.’

what in the blazing hell are you babbling about...?


27 posted on 07/21/2020 8:38:34 AM PDT by IrishBrigade
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To: Stingray51
kids go back to school

Oh, will they now learn something besides faggotry and violent communist revolution?

and sports resume.

Will this stop the anti-American kneeling, and promotion of the BLM communists?

I didn't think so.

28 posted on 07/21/2020 8:46:42 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves Month".)
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To: ROCKLOBSTER

I was actually thinking of youth & school sports. As for pro sports, I totally agree. This former, lifelong Redskins fan won’t be watching the NFL at all this fall. Zero. Which is a big change for me but I will be fine!


29 posted on 07/21/2020 8:50:29 AM PDT by Stingray51
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To: Stingray51
Herd immunity is a universally accepted phenomenon.

Just because it is "universally accepted" does not mean it actually exists. Witness the acceptance of the belief that the sun revolved around the earth.

Herd immunity is a concept that is pushed to make the acceptance of the risk of the damages and injuries caused by a vaccine to be socially acceptable. It is held up as a "benefit" to society. But there is no such immunity provided. What is called immunity is actually the lack of exposure.

In any population, there are two groups. Group A is those that are truly immune to infection. This immunity is gained by either getting a vaccine or by getting the infection and developing the antibodies. Group B is composed of those who are NOT immune. If you vaccinate / expose enough of group A there is a reduction in the chance that a member of group B gets exposed.

HOWEVER

This is NOT immunity. All it takes is for someone who is infected to expose a member of Group B to get that group member sick. That can come from a member of Group A who's immunity has warn off and then got sick, from another species exposure (say pig or cat) or even from someone outside of the population as a tourist.

To the point of gaining the infection, recovery and then gaining immunity, even that is in question:

From https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/04/1062612

While most of the relevant studies show that people who have recovered from infection have antibodies to the virus, WHO noted that as of yesterday, “no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans.”

“At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an 'immunity passport' or 'risk-free certificate,'” the WHO warned.

WHO said: “People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission.”

The agency later clarified in a tweet that it expects that most people who are infected with COVID-19 will develop an antibody response that will provide some level of protection. “What we don't yet know is the level of protection or how long it will last. We are working with scientists around the world to better understand the body's response to COVID-19 infection.”

30 posted on 07/21/2020 8:54:01 AM PDT by taxcontrol (Stupid should hurt - Dad's wisdom)
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To: taxcontrol

Ok, well it sounds as if you have strong opinions on the science.

My personal opinion is that there is no way that Covid deaths have collapsed to near zero in New York other than through herd immunity. I think that as more and more people have been infected and developed the antibodies, there are fewer and fewer pathways for the virus to be transmitted to new victims. But that’s just my opinion and you don’t need me to confirm that you are free to think it is as wrong as a flat earth.


31 posted on 07/21/2020 9:09:29 AM PDT by Stingray51
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To: taxcontrol
WHO said

SCREW THE WHO!!!

(and the UN they rode in on)

32 posted on 07/21/2020 9:15:46 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves Month".)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

And there is still BHT, no one wants to touch it as the patent has run out and no money can be made.

One of the best kept secrets around is BHT and its ability to kill LIPID covered viruses amongst them the corona virus.

BHT short for butylatedhydroxytoluene, has been around for the better part of thirty years or more, has been approved as a food additive by the FDA as safe for human consumption in small quantities and using common sense. Without going into all the details which would fill many pages some of the benefits are difficult to ignore even so pharmaceutical as well as the medical profession does their best to do so. As a prophylactic it would serve its purpose very well until the right vaccine comes along, without any undesirable side effects, besides being inexpensive and is safer than alcohol consumption, use of tobacco or many other unhealthy eating habits, including many prescription dugs with, many of them having undesirable side effects. No doubt whenever you had a prescription filled it came along with a sheet filled with warnings.

Some of the reasons are that that there is no money to be made by pharmaceutical companies as patents related to BHT ran out long time ago and in order to have it approved for medical application it would require an immeasurable amounts of human tests with expenditures in the millions of Dollars which most likely will never be recovered.

On the other hand many doctors may know about it but will refrain from suggesting it as recommending anything which is not approved by the FDA would leave them wide open to lawsuits, as it is pretty well known that one of the American dreams is, to fall on your neighbors property and then sue them for what ever they can get.

Over the years enough information about BHT has surfaced that if used in small quantities to achieve a particular result, such as from 100 mg to about 1g (one gram or 1000mg) and in most cases 250mg to 450mg may do a nice job for some of the things suggested, it may be less harmful than an equivalent amount of Aspirins. Again do your own research and use common sense which appears to be in short supply these days. Should you decide to try don’t go overboard with it, as more is not always better.

Even so if you still apprehensive or hesitant, use it only when one of those nasty viruses appears on the scene and use it as a prophylactic in a small quantity perhaps up to 450 mg and once the danger subside stop taking it. The catch is that in order to do its job BHT works better before you get sick, as BHT will NOT REPAIR ANY DAMAGE which may already have been done by an infectious disease such as the corona virus. Even so, if taken afterwards BHT will still continue to disable lipid covered viruses, but to repair any damage already caused may require different medications.

One suggested way of taking BHT is to dissolve the quantity you intend to take first in oil as BHT is only soluble in either oil or alcohol, I is also much better absorbed by the human body, but alcohol is not recommended to consume along with BHT. One way of doing it is to dissolve 18 grams or 277 grains, if you happen to have a powder scale used for reloading, of BHT in 200 milliliters of olive oil in a small glass bottle. Then heat it up slightly in a microwave for maybe 40 seconds and then shake it a few times. A teaspoon of this substance, depending on its size will give you approx. 450 mg of BHT which in most cases should do the trick.

So why take BHT on the firs place? It has been long known that BHT will damage the lipid layer or cover from LIPID COVERED viruses and the coronavirus happens to be just such one of such viruses and by doing so will prevent such a virus from attaching itself and do its dirty work.

The Principal Benefits of BHT

In order of importance, supplementing with BHT can help with:

Reduce and prevent viral infections such as herpes, thus terminating their outbreaks. But BHT is also effective against many different human and animal viruses including CMV (cytomegalovirus),9 pseudorabies,10 genital herpes,11HIV,12 and many strains of influenza. These are just a few but not all of the viruses that have a lipid envelope and may be killed by BHT include herpes simplex I, herpes simplex II, herpes zoster, CMV, West Nile virus, HIV virus, influenza virus, hepatitis B and C viruses, avian flu influenza virus and the SARS virus. However, BHT has not been clinically tested to treat and address these infections individually, and there probably never will be as no money can be made. Here, it may be of interest to note that a patent had been filed with the number US4350707 for BHT because of its LIPID COVERED virus killing ability approximately 30 years ago, however in the meantime this patent has expired.

Now keep in mind that very few things in life are perfect and this holds true for vaccines as well as BHT. So when everything comes down to being cut and dried, do you prefer risking being infected with a nasty virus with all kinds of unpredictable side effects or take a chance with some substance which overall has a very good safety record.

Besides most viruses will mutate over time, and by the time someone may come up with the proper vaccine it may no longer match the virus which is currently making its round. But this doesn’t make any difference with BHT if such a virus mutates or not. As long as such a virus has a lipid coating it will damage and disable it..
One of my hunches is, of course it is only speculation, and is based on how vaccination generally works. After BHT has finished the deactivation process of a given virus, such a virus may no longer have the potential to harm the human body, however any remnants of it may encourage our immune system to spring into action and produce anti bodies against this particular virus. Basically this is how immunization works by injecting a deactivated virus in anticipation that our immune system responds to it and begins to fight the real thing, when it come along by means of antibodies it has developed in the mean time.

I for one and many others who have been using BHT off and on for the past thirty years whenever one of these lipid covered viruses made their rounds have been pretty successful in keeping those nasty viruses at bay..
If you are interested enough you may want to watch this short movie clip on YouTube………
BHT and Coronavirus | LIFE EXTENSION BOOK RESEARCH ...
www.youtube.com › watch

And by the way and for what it is worth...
To date, there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine made, due to the nature of the virus. Additionally, past attempts to create a coronavirus vaccine have ONLY RESULTED IN LEAVING THE VACCINATED PERSON WITH A HIGHER CHANCE OF SERIOUS ILLNESS AND DEATH WHEN LATER EXPOSED TO ANOTHER STRAIN OF THE VIRUS


33 posted on 07/21/2020 9:19:56 AM PDT by saintgermaine (THE TIME TRAVELLER)
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To: Stingray51
I was actually thinking of youth & school sports.

I never understood the logical connection between "education" and sports. The school funding being extracted from the citizens should be devoted exclusively to the purpose of learning, not political indoctrination nor other expensive extracurricular activities. Let those that love their "youth sports" create local sports-associations. It happens all over the country.

US "education" is a failed institution by world standards, but has done a bang up job as a ministry of communist propaganda. The proof of that can be seen in the streets of Seattle, Portland, Detroit, New York, etc. Brainwashed young white-privilege morons, devoid of education, trying to destroy the USA and obliterate our true history.

It looks like the filthy teachers unions are shutting down the schools anyway, I say let them. If they can figure out how....they can go flip burgers.

It's time to let Charter Schools, Home Schooler Co-ops and home schoolers become "The Education Industry" and Make America Great Again.

The unjustifiable RAT extortion of US homeowners needs to end.

34 posted on 07/21/2020 9:46:14 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves Month".)
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To: cba123

I think the country needs to open up NOW. The elderly and those with medical issues should stay home as much as they can in order to stay safe. It is the responsibility of the elderly and unhealthy to care for themselves. Agencies and charities can help as needed. Myself? I am elderly.

The country needs to open up.


35 posted on 07/21/2020 10:08:26 AM PDT by ncpatriot
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To: saintgermaine

You sound knowledgeable about BHT and other such things. You might want to put your (verifiable of course) bona fides on your home page.

I agree with you that regardless of the effectiveness of an older treatment, it will be ignored if there is no money to be made using it.


36 posted on 07/21/2020 10:19:55 AM PDT by ByteMercenary (Healthcare Insurance is *NOT* a Constitutional right.)
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To: ByteMercenary

There are a lot of so called “Approved” medications on the market which I would not touch with a flagpole unless I am in dire straights and my life would hang in the balance. On the other hand we have BHT of which a good portion is produced for the farming industry such as keeping livestock healthy, or industrial use as an anti oxidant for example keeping oils from going rancid even gasoline from going bad as many things exposed to air will oxidize and in turn will change their characteristics. If you use any kind of cooking oil, add a gram or two of BHT and the oil probably will never go bad until you used it up.

Some time ago BHT got a bad rap during animal trials when they literally stuffed some poor animals with inordinate huge amounts of BHT and in such cases produced adverse reactions.

One cautionary story I encountered while researching BHT was that some ignorant human picked up on the story that BHT will deactivate the herpes virus, WHICH IS TRUE, but he did not do his home work and diligent research very well to find out what a reasonable amount of BHT is to do the job. Usually an amount anywhere from 250 mg to 1000 mg will do the job nicely; especially if BHT is dissolved in oil first as it is better absorbed this way.

And what does this dummy do; he gives the woman in question 80 grams which amounts to 80000 mg. It produced some undesirable effects, but subsided within a couple of days and left no lasting damage. If you would take an equivalent amount of Aspirin your day may come to a close fairly quickly.

Of course this incident was picked up by pointing out how dangerous BHT could be, what of course is far from the truth. In addition you will find some articles that BHT is also produced naturally, and in either form can be quite beneficial. It is a shame as BHT could be used in nursing homes to protect the elderly who are most vulnerable, 500 mg dissolved in oil and taken with food, perhaps taken for a couple of month until this virus loses its grip. Again nothing is absolutely fool proof and perhaps one or two out of a hundred may get a squeeze stomach or some other allergic reaction. Yet the trade off is small compared to what this virus is capable of doing to your body if your immune system is no longer strong enough to fight off this virus.

BHT found naturally

Phytoplankton, including the green algae Botryococcus braunii, as well as three different cyanobacteria (Cylindrospermopsis raciborskii, Microcystis aeruginosa and Oscillatoria sp.) are capable of producing BHT as a natural product. The fruit lychee also produces BHT in its pericarp. It is also produced during the storage process of olives

Search Results
Featured snippet from the web
The evidence on BHT is a bit more reassuring. Despite its structural similarity to BHA, there is no conclusive evidence that it is carcinogenic. The IARC lists it as unclassifiable for humans, but finds that there is limited evidence that it causes cancer in animals.

Chemoprevention of cancer: phenolic antioxidants (BHT, BHA)
G Hocman 1
Abstract
1. The synthetic phenolic antioxidants (e.g. BHT, (BHA?) )added to human and animal food are able to lengthen the life of organisms and lower the incidence of cancer caused by chemical compounds.

2. On the other hand they may not be rendered completely harmless since they can cause lung damage (BHT) or promote the action of some carcinogens (BHA). 3. They could act as compounds preventing cancer either via interception of harmful free radicals, activating the detoxifying enzymes of the body, inhibiting the formation of ultimately carcinogenic metabolites and their binding to DNA, and modifying the immune response of the organism. 4. Their action is influenced by their own chemical structure, the composition of carcinogen, the strain, sex and age of experimental animals, the tissue upon which they are supposed to act and the time of their administration in relation to the time of the carcinogen insult. 5. These compounds are concentrated in adipose tissue, liver and kidney. They are excreted within tens of hours mainly in urine. 6. The acceptable daily intake of BHA is at present considered to be 0.6 mg kg-1 body wt day-1. In spite of their possible tumor-promoting properties they could not be considered overtly toxic. Their pronounced chemoprotective role against some forms of chemical carcinogenesis deserves considerable attention.

Keep in mind that the above was written in reference to BHT and NOT BHA!


37 posted on 07/21/2020 12:26:53 PM PDT by saintgermaine (THE TIME TRAVELLER)
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To: Antoninus
It's an escaped bio-weapon...

It's likely Chinese scientists developing this weapon had heard of herd immunity before...and ways to counter that protection. The weapon was likely designed so natural immunity would wear off, and that each successive time a person was infected their body would be increasingly damaged.

There was a report a few days ago about a doctor getting the disease a second time... Let's hope that report was a mistake.

This is an escaped bio-weapon...

38 posted on 07/21/2020 12:38:02 PM PDT by GOPJ (Leo Terrell - Michael Shellenberger - Stephen Hsu - Bari Weiss - TRUTH: the new HATE SPEECH)
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To: cba123
Re: “Herd” immunity means, we failed.”

“We” failed?

No - it means an intensely politicized CDC, which is staffed by self-interested lifers, has failed.

If we counted influenza and common cold fatalities using the same method we count COVID fatalities, we would have 150,000 influenza and common cold deaths EVERY year!

“We” have failed politically.

Conservatives must compel Fauci to recalculate the last 10 years of influenza and common cold fatalities using the new COVID-19 counting method.

39 posted on 07/21/2020 5:55:33 PM PDT by zeestephen
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