Posted on 04/22/2023 4:41:51 PM PDT by Kazan
One possible negotiating strategy might be for Ukraine to agree to negotiate rental of some parts of Ukraine ports for peaceful business shipping purposes. Carefully monitored so military shipments are not being hidden. Russia’s grain for example. A warm water port has been a Russian goal for centuries. Negotiated port use might give Putin a small claim to a Russian “victory” on a long held goal. A goal I am sure Russians learn about in school. Oh, and maybe let the Kerch Bridge be named the Putin Peace Bridge, and allow Russian tourists to enjoy Crimean beaches, once all the theft and expropriation of Ukrainian owners Crimea property has been sorted out.
“Before letting NATO o his doorstep “
Russia has bordered NATO since 1999.
We scream in pain as we strike them.
100% :)
Be careful, you're talking to a self-proclaimed NATO warrior.
Time wounds all "heals" lofl...
Well, ansel12 is Class of 2005; you are Class of 2002; and JonPreston is Class of 2008. So, who is Class of 1997?
If the tangible reality does not line up with your theory, you should consider adjusting/trashing the theory.
It’s not Russia moving into our space.
It’s us moving into their space.
(((Russia’s frontier)))
—Syria, politically allied since 1944, a formal Soviet and then Russia security ally since 1971 with naval and air bases there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Syria_relations Also an OPEC country, and we decided to invade them in 2014.
—Venezuela, Russian aligned, we decided to overthrow the government in 2020, got caught red handed doing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020) Also an OPEC county.
—Libya, Soviet and then Russian aligned since 1969: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya%E2%80%93Russia_relations We decided to overthrow the government in 2011. Also an OPEC country. We are just lying about not being there. We have both Special ops and major CIA activities there: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/17/secret-us-mission-in-libya-revealed-after-air-force-posted-pictures
(((Russia’s border states)))
—Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, former Soviet Republics bordering Russia, we moved in 2004 and today are NATO members.
—Republic of Georgia, we offered NATO membership in 2008 and Russia invaded, putting an end to that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War
—Ukraine, we pushed for NATO in 2014, and then again in 2021: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/ (this caused the war, we caused the war)
I’m sure your way of seeing the world makes you feel better about yourself, but you really need to ask yourself if it even remotely lines up with reality post Cold War. The Warsaw Pact is gone. The Soviet Union is gone. We want to pretend as if it still exists in order to justify our actions, but it simply is not the case. This is not Russia expanding West, it is us expanding East: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug2468hDl6E
It isn’t Russia that is intentionally leaking documents in Mexico to pressure their government: https://bnn.network/watch-now/amlo-alleges-pentagon-spying-and-dea-leaks-in-mexico/ It isn’t Russia that is having senior party leaders proposing “invading” our neighbor to the South: https://www.newsweek.com/lindsey-graham-mexico-military-drug-kidnapping-1786025
We have become the expansionist one.
We are the one quickly willing to use military force in order to achieve economic gain because we see no feasible/viable retaliation to us. We are an unparalleled military power today, but our ruling political class is still just a bunch of greedy savages like they always have been, anywhere, all through history. Bottom line, we have become the belligerent. There comes a point, and it’s a hard pill to swallow, where you realize, you’re not the good guy anymore, it’s you that is the bully on the playground, following no rules anymore, acting ever more aggressive and without concern of the plight and destruction we are causing in furthering our economic agenda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLmuF-0P4tk
Actually no, it is not “the USA moving into Russia’s space”
It is “Ukrainians don’t want to be Russia’s vassal or worse - so they are fighting and they succeeded in March 2022 to not be a vassal, but are still fighting”
Oh that is bull - the Baltic states were crushed by Muscowy and they desperately left and looked for any alliances that would stop Russia from crushing and assimilating them
If Russia was willing to be a friend and not a threat, then they would have been happy with a Finlandization -- but even Finland see's no point in Finlandization with Putin's Muscowy
That's even more bull - Georgia REQUESTED to join NATO to prevent Russia invading
their application was rejected "for fear of PROVOKING RUSSIA" -- and 6 weeks after the rejection, Russia invaded
If Georgia was let in, then they would not have been invaded by Moscow
So Ukraine being a US “vassal” state is OK?
Do you really think Ukraine is “sovereign” in any of this?
All of your arguments fall on their face right from the beginning, seeing how the government of Ukraine is basically a satellite of the US, with us having literally hand picked who most of the key leaders in that country are: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207 (These were leaked tapes of the US State Department picking who they want running what in Ukraine)
You had the US go into an emerging economy, a post Soviet era broken, poor, somewhat chaotic and disorganized country with an internal conflict. US NGOs, CIA, the state department and even US media were all part of an orchestra working together with what appeared as unlimited resources to achieve their end.
In the words of George Soros, “Our foundation has been working for 25 years to get into governments and civil society around the world. Our particular focus has been Ukraine. That work has paid off.” and if the US says it wants something, they get it, on the spot:
-—https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/435906-us-embassy-pressed-ukraine-to-drop-probe-of-george-soros-group-during-2016/ And yes, Ukraine just drops it all.
-—https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azLKK0xTOFI (he BRAGS about it!!!) So we get the prosecutor fired.
Ukraine did not have a chance and today you have no kidding a US investment firm in the background telling the government of Ukraine what to do: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/19/business/zelensky-blackrock-reconstruction-fund.html
If you want this war to end, forget Ukraine, talk to the US: https://www.rferl.org/a/orban-ukraine-war-us-russia-talks/31956804.html This isn’t a war between Ukraine and Russia, it’s a war between the US (financing, arming, the brains behind it) with it’s European allies, against Russia. If the US decides to end this war, it will be over quickly, and you talk about Ukraine not wanting to be a “vassal state?” Hahaha
Actually yes, we are walking all over the Russians, have been for years (I gave factual examples but I understand that won’t change your “feelings”). We are able to sell it as if we’re the good guys and even victims in all of this because frankly everyone with money and political pull in on board.
You have the Euros and US on board. You have the big corporations and financial institutions that were pushing for it, and the political elite panders to those interests.
All the MSM and big tech are on board because they merely are a sounding board for the political class and oligarchs running the West.
There is a little bit of opposition politics where some (a few) on the more conservative fringe are raising questions, but they are buried in a sea of one sided reporting and censorship.
So rest assured, your “feelings” will be affirmed.
Ukraine is not a US vassal state.
Belarus is a Russian vassal state.
The USA has no vassal states — the USA gave up its imperialist mindset (if it had any) over a century ago.
Why are you defending Moscow’s imperialist mindset?
Ukraine is sovereign - it governs itself and choses its own direction and government policy.
This is unlike Russia’s vassal state - Belarus - where its governmental policies are dictated from the Kremlin.
The Ukrainians chose to get closer to the EU and reduce corruption, rather than Yanukowych’s pro-Kremlin, pro-corruption direction.
The Ukrainians chose to not re-elect Poroshenko.
The Ukrainians were heartened by zelenskyy staying and they fought the Russians off.
“with us having literally hand picked who most of the key leaders in that country “ —> bull.
your very article belies your statement
1. “she doesn’t think Vitaly Klitschko, the boxer-turned-politician who is a main opposition leader, should be in a new government.” —> and yet Klitschko is in government - he is the Mayor of Kyiv
2. Absolutely NOTHING says that any “key leaders” or indeed any leaders at all were picked by the usa.
Why are you posting lies again?
Then you post a NY Times article about zelenskyy meeting Blackrock about a reconstruction fund.
The article has nothing at all about “ telling the government of Ukraine what to do:”
AGain, why are you posting lies?
You poor Kremlin snowflake -- your feelings were hurt by me pointing out that the articles you posted say nothing resembling what you allege they say.
I admire Poland’s will to fight.
I think Poland is a reliable ally of the US.
But:
-—The Warsaw Pact is gone.
-—The Soviet Union is gone.
1) There is no national security interest in Ukraine for the West. All attempts to explain such end up with make belief boogieman stories that are not rooted in reality, i.e. what the true Russian capabilities are or what has been happening regards their frontier nations and border states. This is an (((entirely economically based conflict))).
2) Ukraine is not sovereign. They are essentially owned by the US, no differently than how we own many other places. You do not need to see a US tank on the street corner for a place to be owned by us.
3) Ukraine is not a real democracy, they are no better regards human rights, they are no better when it comes to transparency or rule of law than the Russians...
All these cliche’s we like to throw around at our convenience and only selectively apply are trash arguments that are supposed to make people “feel” a certain way. Meanwhile, our number #1 trade partner is a single party religious oppressive communist regime that makes dissidents disappear, has no freedom of speech, uses forced labor, forced abortions, dubious organ harvesting policies, a one child policy until recent... We prop up a Royal family in Saudi Arabia, a king in Jordan, despot regimes which in Saudi Arabia’s case ordered the assignation of a US resident in Turkey, a journalist who was becoming a pain in the ass: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45812399 What did we do after the dismemberment of a journalist and US resident? We sold Saudi Arabia $200 billion in arms!
NO MAJOR POWER ACCEPTS ANOTHER PLAYING IN THEIR BACKYARD. China don’t like it, the US don’t like it, and the Russians don’t like it. We did not accept it with Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, or in Grenada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis (When we told Cuba they may NOT put missiles in their country)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Grenada (When we invaded a country because they dared build a runway which could accommodate Soviet bombers)
The US is a nation which decided on it’s own, and then enforced what was called the “Monroe Doctrine,” do you even know what that meant? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine We basically declared ourselves as the hegemon in charge of all Latin and South America, de facto result. And now we want to lecture people about “sovereignty” and how Ukraine on Russia’s border should be able to join a military alliance with us? North-East Ukraine is 6 minutes Time Of Flight for a modern hyper-sonic missile to Moscow. Do you know what nation it was that left the Ballistic Missile Treaty? We left the treaty in June 2002.
There are generally speaking, two types of people on every issue. Everyone falls into these groups, depending on the issue.
1. Those that live in the past.
2. Those that are disconnected from the past.
Those that live in the past are unable to see how things have changed. They are stuck in a world view shaped by historical events and a culture which propagates certain ideas. It is socially expected to agree with this world view (why it persists).
Then you have those that are disconnected form the past. They are entirely ignorant of the world around them and have no understanding of why certain things happen like they do because they do not understand the underlying historical context. We Americans are horrible in this respect because we live in an American bubble.
The point being, that we are all both trapped by history and ignorant of it depending on what it discussed.
When you have very strong feelings on a subject, you need to ask yourself if how I feel is based on factual / empirical evidence and events that are relevant today.
When you feel Russia is this empire wanting to re-establish itself, but in reality we are wanting to build NATO bases 6 minutes TOF to Moscow, tearing away their frontier states... then that does not support your feelings. When you claim Russia is this big powerful threat, but in reality has 55% our ground forces, 47% our air forces, 43% our naval forces. 44% our population, 40% the number of males reaching military age annually, and no South America to reach back to for an endless supply of bodies. When Russia’s economy by GDP is smaller than Texas and California combined, has less industry, less high tech. If Russia has few allies, and they are all weak, with the most powerful one (Belarus) not even really being on par with the Netherlands... then the facts (recorded documented events and their chronology), the objective reality (things you can measure) does not line up with your feelings.
Try to see where the world has changed and discard those ideas/feelings that are from the past which are no longer applicable today.
Russia is not our friend. But they are also not our #1 threat and it is actually us walking all over them, not vice versa.
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