Posted on 09/05/2001 2:47:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7
16. In August he set out again, and through various provinces came to Boston. While he was here, and in the neighboring places, he was extremely weak in body: yet the multitudes of hearers were so great, and the effects wrought on them so astonishing, as the oldest men then alive in the town had never seen before. The same power attended his preaching at New York, particularly on Sunday, November 2: almost as soon as he began, crying, weeping, and wailing were to be heard on every side. Many sunk down to the ground, cut to the heart; and many were filled with divine comfort. Toward the close of his journey he made this reflection: "It is the seventy-fifth day since I arrived at Rhode Island, exceeding weak in body; yet God has enabled me to preach an hundred and seventy-five times in public, besides exhorting frequently in private! Never did God vouchsafe me greater comforts: never did I perform my journeys with less fatigue, or see such a continuance of the divine presence in the congregations to whom I preached." In December he returned to Savannah, and in the March following arrived in England.
17. You may easily observe, that the preceding account is chiefly extracted from his own journals, which, for their artless and unaffected simplicity, may vie with any writings of the kind. And how exact a specimen is this of his labors both in Europe and America, for the honor of his beloved Master, during the thirty years that followed, as well as of the uninterrupted shower of blessings wherewith God was pleased to succeed his labors! Is it not much to be mourned, that anything should have prevented his continuing this account, till at least near the time when he was called by his Lord to enjoy the fruit of his labor? If he has left any papers of this kind, and his friends account me worthy of the honor, it would be my glory and joy to methodize, transcribe, and prepare them for the public view.
18. A particular account of the last scene of his life is thus given by a gentleman of Boston: --
"After being about a month with us in Boston and its vicinity, and preaching every day, he went to Old York; preached on Thursday, September 27, there; proceeded to Portsmouth, and preached there on Friday. On Saturday morning he set out for Boston; but before he came to Newbury, where he had engaged to preach the next morning, he was importuned to preach by the way. The house not being large enough to contain the people, he preached in an open field. But having been infirm for several weeks, this so exhausted his strength, that when he came to Newbury he could not get out of the ferry-boat without the help of two men. In the evening, however, he recovered his spirits, and appeared with his usual cheerfulness. He went to his chamber at nine, his fixed time, which no company could divert him from, and slept better than he had done for some weeks before. He rose at four in the morning, September 30, and went into his closet; and his companion observed he was unusually long in private. He left his closet, returned to his companion, threw himself on the bed, and lay about ten minutes. Then he fell upon his knees, and prayed most fervently to God that if it was consistent with His will, he might that day finish his Master's work. He then desired his man to call Mr. Parsons, the clergyman, at whose house he was; but, in a minute, before Mr. Parsons could reach him, died, without a sigh or groan. On the news of his death, six gentlemen set out for Newbury, in order to bring his remains hither: but he could not be moved; so that his precious ashes must remain at Newbury. Hundreds would have gone from this town to attend his funeral, had they not expected he would have been interred here.... May this stroke be sanctified to the Church of God in general, and to this province in particular!"
II. 1. We are, in the second place, to take some view of his character. A little sketch of this was soon after published in the Boston Gazette; an extract of which is subjoined: -- ["Little can be said of him but what every friend to vital Christianity who has sat under his ministry will attest."]
"In his public labors he has, for many years, astonished the world with his eloquence and devotion. With what divine pathos did he persuade the unrepentant sinner to embrace the practice of piety and virtue! [Filled with the spirit of grace, he] spoke from the heart, and, with a fervency of zeal perhaps unequalled since the day of the Apostles, [adorned the truths he delivered with the most graceful charms of rhetoric and oratory.] From the pulpit he was unrivalled in the command of an ever-crowded auditory. Nor was he less agreeable and instructive in his private conversation; happy in a remarkable ease of address, willing to communicate, studious to edify. May the rising generation catch a spark of that flame which shone, with such distinguished luster, in the spirit and practice of this faithful servant of the most high God!"
2. A more particular, and equally just, character of him has appeared in one of the English papers. It may not be disagreeable to you to add the substance of this likewise: --
"The character of this truly pious person must be [deeply] impressed on the heart of every friend to vital religion. In spite of a tender [and delicate] constitution, he continued to the last day of his life, preaching with a frequency and fervor that seemed to exceed the natural strength of the most robust. Being called to the exercise of his function at an age when most young men are only beginning to qualify themselves for it, he had not time to make a very considerable progress in the learned languages. But this defect was amply supplied by a lively and fertile genius, by fervent zeal, and by a forcible and most persuasive delivery. And though in the pulpit he often found it needful by "the terrors of the Lord" to "persuade men," he had nothing gloomy in his nature; being singularly cheerful, as well as charitable and tender-hearted. He was as ready to relieve the bodily as the spiritual necessities of those that applied to him. It ought also to be observed, that he constantly enforced upon his audience every moral duty; particularly industry in their several callings, and obedience to their superiors. He endeavored, by the most extraordinary efforts of preaching, in different places, and even in the open fields, to rouse the lower class of people from the last degree of inattention and ignorance to a sense of religion. For this, and his other labors, the name of GEORGE WHITEFIELD will long be remembered with esteem and veneration."
3. That both these accounts are just and impartial, will readily be allowed; that is, as far as they go. But they go little farther than the outside of his character. They show you the preacher, but not the man, the Christian, the saint of God. May I be permitted to add a little on this head, from a personal knowledge of near forty years? Indeed, I am thoroughly sensible how difficult it is to speak on so delicate a subject; what prudence is required to avoid both extremes, to say neither too little nor too much! Nay, I know it is impossible to speak at all, to say either less or more, without incurring from some the former, from others the latter censure. Some will seriously think that too little is said; and others, that it is too much. But without attending to this, I will speak just what I know, before Him to whom we are all to give an account.
4. Mention has already been made of his unparalleled zeal, his indefatigable activity, his tender-heartedness to the afflicted, and charitableness toward the poor. But should we not likewise mention his deep gratitude to all whom God had used as instruments of good to him? -- of whom he did not cease to speak in the most respectful manner, even to his dying day. Should we not mention, that he had a heart susceptible of the most generous and the most tender friendship? I have frequently thought that this, of all others, was the distinguishing part of his character. How few have we known of so kind a temper, of such large and flowing affections! Was it not principally by this, that the hearts of others were so strangely drawn and knit to him? Can anything but love beget love? This shone in his very countenance, and continually breathed in all his words, whether in public or private. Was it not this, which, quick and penetrating as lightning, flew from heart to heart? which gave that life to his sermons, his conversations, his letters? Ye are witnesses!
5. But away with the vile misconstruction of men of corrupt minds, who know of no love but what is earthly and sensual! Be it remembered, at the same time, that he was endued with the most nice and unblemished modesty. His office called him to converse very frequently and largely with women as well as men; and those of every age and condition. But his whole behavior towards them was a practical comment on that advice of St. Paul to Timothy: "Entreat the elder women as mothers, the younger as sisters, with all purity."
6. Meantime, how suitable to the friendliness of his spirit was the frankness and openness of his conversation! -- although it was as far removed from rudeness on the one hand, as from guile [and disguise] on the other. Was not this frankness at once a fruit and a proof of his courage and intrepidity? Armed with these, he feared not the faces of men, but "used great plainness of speech" to persons of every rank and condition, high and low, rich and poor; endeavoring only "by manifestation of the truth to commend himself to every man's conscience in the sight of God."
7. Neither was he afraid of labor or pain, any more than of "what man [could] do unto him;" being equally Patient in bearing ill and doing well.
And this appeared in the steadiness wherewith he pursued whatever he undertook for his Master's sake. Witness one instance for all, -- the Orphan-house in Georgia; which he began and perfected, in spite of all discouragements. Indeed, in whatever concerned himself he was pliant and flexible. In this case he was "easy to be entreated;" easy to be either convinced or persuaded. But he was immovable in the things of God, or wherever his conscience was concerned. None could persuade, any more than affright, him to vary, in the least point, from that integrity which was inseparable from his whole character, and regulated all his words and actions. Herein he did
Stand as an iron pillar strong, And steadfast as a wall of brass.
8. If it be inquired what was the foundation of this integrity, or of his sincerity, courage, patience, and every other valuable and amiable quality; it is easy to give the answer. It was not the excellence of his natural temper, not the strength of his understanding; it was not the force of education; no, nor the advice of his friends: it was no other than faith in a bleeding Lord; "faith of the operation of God." It was "a lively hope of an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away." It was "the love of God shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost which was given unto him," filling his soul with tender, disinterested love to every child of man. From this source arose that torrent of eloquence which frequently bore down all before it; from this, that astonishing force of persuasion which the most hardened sinners could not resist. This it was which often made his "head as waters, and his eyes a fountain of tears." This it was which enabled him to pour out his soul in prayer, in a manner peculiar to himself, with such fullness and ease united together, with such strength and variety both of sentiment and expression.
9. I may close this head with observing what an honor it pleased God to put upon His faithful servant, by allowing him to declare His everlasting gospel in so many various countries, to such numbers of people, and with so great an effect on so many of their precious souls! Have we read or heard of any person since the Apostles, who testified the gospel of the grace of God through so widely extended a space, through so large a part of the habitable world? Have we read or heard of any person who called so many thousands, so many myriads, of sinners to repentance? Above all, have we read or heard of any who has been a blessed instrument in His hand of bringing so many sinners from "darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God?" It is true, were we to talk thus to the gay world, we should be judged to speak as barbarians. But you understand the language of the country to which you are going, and whither our dear friend is gone a little before us.
III. But how shall we improve this awful providence? This is the third thing which we have to consider. And the answer to this important question is easy (may God write it in all our hearts!). By keeping close to the grand doctrines which he delivered; and by drinking into his spirit.
1. And, first, let us keep close to the grand scriptural doctrines which he everywhere delivered. There are many doctrines of a less essential nature, with regard to which even the sincere children of God (such is the present weakness of human understanding) are and have been divided for many ages. In these we may think and let think; we may "agree to disagree." But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials of "the faith which was once delivered to the saints;" and which this champion of God so strongly insisted on, at all times, and in all places!
2. His fundamental point was, "Give God all the glory of whatever is good in man;" and, "In the business of salvation, set Christ as high and man as low as possible." With this point, he and his friends at Oxford, the original Methodists, so called, set out. Their grand principle was, there is no power (by nature) and no merit in man. They insisted, all power to think, speak, or act aright, is in and from the Spirit of Christ; and all merit is (not in man, how high soever in grace, but merely) in the blood of Christ. So he and they taught: there is no power in man, till it is given him from above, to do one good work, to speak one good word, or to form one good desire. For it is not enough to say, all men are sick of sin: no, we are all "dead in trespasses and sins." It follows, that all the children of men are, "by nature, children of wrath." We are all "guilty before God," liable to death temporal and eternal.
3. And we are all helpless, both with regard to the power and to the guilt of sin. "For who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?" None less than the Almighty. Who can raise those that are dead, spiritually dead in sin? None but He who raised us from the dust of the earth. But on what consideration will He do this? "Not for works of righteousness that we have done." "The dead cannot praise Thee, O Lord;" nor do anything for the sake of which they should be raised to life. Whatever, therefore, God does, He does it merely for the sake of His well-beloved Son: "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities." He Himself "bore" all "our sins in His own body upon the tree." He "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Here then is the sole meritorious cause of every blessing we do or can enjoy; in particular of our pardon and acceptance with God, of our full and free justification. But by what means do we become interested in what Christ has done and suffered? "Not by works, lest any man should boast;" but by faith alone. "We conclude," says the Apostle, "that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the law." And "to as many as" thus "receive Him, giveth He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believe in His name; who are born, not of the will of man, but of God."
4. And "except a man be" thus "born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." But all who are thus "born of the Spirit" have "the kingdom of God within them." Christ sets up His kingdom in their hearts; "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." That "mind is in them, which was in Christ Jesus," enabling them to "walk as Christ also walked." His indwelling Spirit makes them both holy in heart, and "holy in all manner of conversation." But still, seeing all this is a free gift, through the righteousness and blood of Christ, there is eternally the same reason to remember, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
5. You are not ignorant that these are the fundamental doctrines which he everywhere insisted on. And may they not be summed up, as it were, in two words, -- the new birth, and justification by faith? These let us insist upon with all boldness, at all times, and in all places; -- in public (those of us who are called thereto), and at all opportunities in private. Keep close to these good, old, unfashionable doctrines, how many soever contradict and blaspheme. Go on, my brethren, in the "name of the Lord, and in the power of His might." With all care and diligence, "keep that safe which is committed to your trust;" knowing that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but this truth shall not pass away."
6. But will it be sufficient to keep close to his doctrines, how pure soever they are? Is there not a point of still greater importance than this, namely, to drink into his spirit? -- herein to be a follower of him, even as he was of Christ? Without this, the purity of our doctrines would only increase our condemnation. This, therefore, is the principal thing -- to copy after his spirit. And allowing that in some points we must be content to admire what we cannot imitate; yet in many others we may, through the same free grace, be partakers of the same blessing. Conscious then of your own wants and of His bounteous love, who "giveth liberally and reproaches not," cry to Him that works all in all for a measure of the same precious faith; of the same zeal and activity; the same tender-heartedness, charitableness, bowels of mercies. Wrestle with God for some degree of the same grateful, friendly, affectionate temper; of the same openness, simplicity, and godly sincerity; "love without dissimulation." Wrestle on, till the power from on high works in you the same steady courage and patience; and above all, because it is the crown of all, the same invariable integrity!
7. Is there any other fruit of the grace of God with which he was eminently endowed, and the want of which among the children of God he frequently and passionately mourned? There is one, that is, catholic love; that sincere and tender affection which is due to all those who, we have reason to believe, are children of God by faith; in other words, all those, in every persuasion, who "fear God and work righteousness." He longed to see all who had "tasted of the good word," of a true catholic spirit; a word little understood, and still less experienced, by many who have it frequently in their mouth. Who is he that answers this character? Who is the man of a catholic spirit? One who loves as friends, as brethren in the Lord, as joint partakers of the present kingdom of heaven, and fellow heirs of His eternal kingdom, all, of whatever opinion, mode of worship, or congregation, who believe in the Lord Jesus; who love God and man; who, rejoicing to please and fearing to offend God, are careful to abstain from evil, and zealous of good works. He is a man of a truly catholic spirit, who bears all these continually upon his heart; who, having an unspeakable tenderness for their persons, and an earnest desire of their welfare, does not cease to commend them to God in prayer, as well as to plead their cause before men; who speaks comfortably to them, and labors, by all his words, to strengthen their hands in God. He assists them to the uttermost of his power, in all things, spiritual and temporal; he is ready to "spend and be spent" for them; yea, "to lay down his life for his brethren."
8. How amiable a character is this! How desirable to every child of God! But why is it then so rarely found? How is it that there are so few instances of it? Indeed, supposing we have tasted of the love of God, how can any of us rest till it is our own? Why, there is a delicate device, whereby Satan persuades thousands that they may stop short of it and yet be guiltless. It is well if many here present are not in this "snare of the devil, taken captive at his will."O yes," says one, "I have all this love for those I believe to be children of God; but I will never believe he is a child of God, who belongs to that vile congregation! Can he, do you think, be a child of God, who holds such detestable opinions? or he that joins in such senseless and superstitious, if not idolatrous, worship?" So we may justify ourselves in one sin by adding a second to it! We excuse the want of love in ourselves by laying the blame on others! To color our own devilish temper, we pronounce our brethren children of the devil! O beware of this! -- and if you are already taken in the snare, escape out of it as soon as possible! Go and learn that truly catholic love which "is not rash," or hasty in judging; that love which "thinks no evil;" which "believes and hopes all things;" which makes all the allowances for others that we desire others should make for us! Then we shall take knowledge of the grace of God which is in every man, whatever be his opinion or mode of worship: then will all that fear God be near and dear unto us "in the bowels of Jesus Christ."
9. Was not this the spirit of our dear friend? And why should it not be ours? O Thou God of love, how long shall Thy people be a by-word among the Heathen? How long shall they laugh us to scorn, and say, "See how these Christians love one another!" When wilt Thou roll away our reproach? Shall the sword devour for ever? How long will it be ere Thou bid Thy people return from "following each other?" Now, at least, "let all the people stand still, and pursue after their brethren no more!" But what ever others do, let all of us, my brethren, hear the voice of him that, being dead, yet speaks! Suppose ye hear him say, "Now, at least, be ye followers of me as I was of Christ! Let brother "no more lift up sword against brother, neither know ye war any more!" Rather put ye on, as the elect of God, bowels of mercies, humbleness of mild, brotherly kindness, gentleness, long- suffering, forbearing one another in love. Let the time past suffice for strife, envy, contention; for biting and devouring one another. Blessed be God, that ye have not long ago been consumed one of another! From henceforth hold ye the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
10. O God, with Thee no word is impossible! Thou does whatever please Thee! O that Thou would cause the mantle of Thy prophet, whom Thou hast taken up, now to fall upon us that remain! "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" Let his spirit rest upon these Thy servants! Show Thou art the God that answers by fire! Let the fire of Thy love fall on every heart! And because we love Thee, let us love one another with a "love stronger than death!" Take away from us "all anger, and wrath, and bitterness; all clamor and evil speaking!" Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"
AN HYMN
1Servant of God, well done! Thy glorious warfare's past; The battle's fought, the race is won, And thou art crown'd at last; Of all thy heart's desire Triumphantly possess'd, Lodged by the ministerial choir In thy Redeemer's breast.
2In condescending love, Thy ceaseless prayer He heard; And bade thee suddenly remove To thy complete reward: Ready to bring the peace, Thy beauteous feet were shod, When mercy sign'd thy soul's release, And caught thee up to God.
3With saints enthroned on high, Thou dost thy Lord proclaim, And still To God salvation cry, Salvation to the Lamb! O happy, happy soul! In ecstasies of praise, Long as eternal ages roll, Thou seest thy Savior's face!
4Redeem'd from earth and pain, Ah! when shall we ascend, And all in Jesu's presence reign With our translated friend? Come, Lord, and quickly come! And, when in Thee complete, Receive Thy longing servants home, To triumph at Thy feet!
[Sugden's edition includes the additions in square brackets within the text.] [Sugden's introduction:
GEORGE WHITEFIELD died at Newburyport, Massachusetts, thirty miles north of Boston, on September 30, 1770, in the Presbyterian manse, which is still preserved. He was buried in a vault under the pulpit of the Presbyterian meeting-house on October 2, according to his own wish; and in 1828 a cenotaph was erected in the church with a suitable inscription. Under date November 1O, 1770, Wesley says, "I returned to London, and had the low-spirited news of Mr. Whitefield's death confirmed by his executors, who desired me to preach his funeral sermon on Sunday the 18th." [This was his own wish. "If you should die abroad," said Mr. Keen, "whom shall we get to preach your funeral sermon? Must it be your old friend, the Rev. Mr. John Wesley?" This question was often put, and as often Whitefield answered, "He is the man."] "In order to write this, I retired to Lewisham on Monday; and on Sunday following went to the chapel in Tottenham Court Road. An immense multitude was gathered together from all corners of the town. I was at first afraid that a great part of the congregation would not be able to hear; but it pleased God to strengthen my voice that even those at the door heard distinctly. It was an awful season. All were still as night; most appeared to be deeply affected; and an impression was made on many which one would hope will not speedily be effaced. The time appointed for my beginning at the Tabernacle was half-hour after five, but it was quite filled at three; so I began at four. At first the noise was exceeding great; but it ceased when I began to speak; and my voice was again so strengthened that all who were within could hear, unless an accidental noise hindered here or there for a few moments. Oh that all may hear the voice of Him with whom are the issues of life and death; and who so loudly, by this unexpected stroke, calls all His children to love one another." On the following Friday he repeated the sermon at the Tabernacle at Greenwich to an overflowing congregation. Again, on January 2, 1771, he preached at Deptford "a kind of funeral sermon for Mr. Whitefield. In every place I wish to show all possible respect to the memory of that great and good man."
It must not be forgotten that at this very time Wesley was in the thick of the controversy with the Rev. Walter Shirley and the Countess of Huntingdon's preachers about the famous Minutes of 1770, in which Wesley had laid down clearly the differences between his views and those of the Calvinists. It is much to the credit both of Mr. Whitefield's friends and of Wesley that this was not allowed to interfere with their invitation to him to preach the sermon, nor with his own affectionate and ungrudging recognition of the greatness and goodness of his departed fellow worker. Indeed, their difference of opinion had never, since the dispute in 1741, been permitted to interrupt their mutual love and esteem; they agreed to differ, and still to love one another.
The sermon was at once published in London; and a reprint was issued in Dublin, also dated 1770, with an additional hymn "Glory and thanks and love;" and it was placed last in the sermons in vol. iv (1771). A warm attack was made on it in the Gospel Magazine of February 1771, probably by Mr. Romaine. He first objected to the text. "How improper," he says, "to apply the words of a mad prophet to so holy a man as Mr. Whitefield!" Of course Wesley's answer was obvious: he did not apply the words to Mr. Whitefield, but to himself; and he humorously says, "Nothing would be more suitable than for Balaam junior to use the words of his forefather; surely a poor reprobate may, without offence, wish to die like one of the elect!" The more serious part of the attack was on the statement in iii. (5) that "the fundamental doctrines which Mr. Whitefield everywhere insisted on" were "the new birth, and justification by faith." Romaine, on the contrary, affirms "the grand fundamental doctrines, which he everywhere preached, were the everlasting covenant between the Father and the Son, and absolute predestination flowing therefrom." Wesley answers "(1) that Mr. Whitefield did not everywhere preach these. In all the times I myself heard him preach, I never heard him utter a sentence either on one or the other. Yea, all the times he preached in West Street Chapel, and in our other chapels throughout England, he did not preach these doctrines at all, no, not in a single paragraph.
(2) That he did everywhere preach the new birth, and justification by faith.\ Both in West Street Chapel and in all our other chapels throughout England, he did preach the necessity of the new birth, and justification by faith, as clearly as he has done in his two volumes of printed sermons." Wesley was not ignorant of the differences between himself and Whitefield in regard to predestination; but most properly in this sermon, whilst he recognizes (iii. I) that there are differences of opinion between the children of God, he emphasizes the points of agreement; and whatever Whitefield may have believed about the eternal decrees, no man ever preached a full and free salvation more constantly and effectively than he did. The only solution of this difficultly is to be found in the recognition that the two opposing views represent the two sides of one truth, which our finite understanding is not able to synthesize; but which we may nevertheless accept, just as we accept the Unity in Trinity in the Godhead, or the divine-human person of our Lord.
Incidentally we learn from Wesley reply to Romaine that one of the hymns sung at the service was Charles Wesley's "Shrinking from the cold hand of death," from the Short Hymns on Select Passages (1762), now No. 823 in the Methodist Hymn-Book; the other was no doubt the one appended to the sermon, "Servant of God, well done!" written by Charles Wesley for this occasion, and published as "An Hymn on the Death of the Rev. Mr. Whitefield" in the third (post-humous) series of Funeral Hymns. The hymn appended to the Dublin edition of the sermon is No. 42 in the second series of Funeral Hymns, published in 1759 (Osborn's edition of Poetical Works, vi. 285).
The Tottenham Court Road Chapel, or Whitefield's Tabernacle, as it was often called, stood on the west side of the road, between Tottenham Street and Howland Street. The site was then surrounded by fields and gardens, and there were only two houses to the north of it. The foundation stone was laid by Whitefield in June 1756, and he opened it on November 7 of the same year. It soon was found to be too small, and was enlarged in 1759. A vault was prepared beneath the chapel, in which Whitefield meant that both he himself and the two Wesleys should be interred; but his wish was not fulfilled. In 1890 the building was taken down and re-erected. It is now known as Whitefield's Central Mission.
The Tabernacle was originally a wooden shed to the north of Upper Moorfields, close to Wesley's Foundery, opened in 1741; in 1753 it was superseded by a brick building, the one in which this sermon was preached in the afternoon. This was used for over a century, and was then replaced by a Tabernacle at the corner of Tabernacle Street and Leonard Street, Finsbury, which occupied the old site. The old pulpit was retained from which Wesley preached on this occasion. The building is now used for business purposes.]
To use the doctrine of predestination to say "But why?" is to make the very mistake which an irresponsible reprobate would predictably make. Please be careful here!
The reason why I say that it is a predictable mistake is because it is the very question which Paul anticipates and answers in Romans 9:19-20.
The fact that you posed this question as an objection against the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 is an independent witness that we Calvinists are reading Romans 9 correctly. And Paul is warning you in particular about the problem of doctrinal hard-heartedness.
God takes the credit as the first cause of all things. This is part of what it means to be Lord. You really do need to confess this. "In Him we live and move and have our being," and "He upholds all things by the Word of His Power." This idea that God is the first cause of all things in matters of salvation and damnation is clear in Romans 9. But it goes without saying that you take the blame as the efficient cause of all of your own wickedness.
(When God hardens your heart, it proceeds according to mechanisms of your own wickedness. You need to confess that about your own sinful nature. The idea that you are accountable to God for your actions and attitudes is another aspect of confessing His Lordship. It's just outside the scope of what Paul is emphasizing in Romans 9. He is talking about the predestinarian side of reality, not the free agency side of reality.)
You miss the point. Mean dogs like you don't go to heaven.
uh......
typo????
Man, if they think you're hard, they should read the Treatise on the Religious Affections.
The problem for you WM is that in your current mormon situation, you will glorify Him by not praising Him. You see, you will only praise that which is foremost in your affections; and that for you is yourself. You are busy listening to the following lie: I will be like the most High. You need to stop this. It will be Eternally fatal unless your heart is changed. Repent and taste the joy in my Christ.
I've got a better idea. I will tell them the Truth from God's Word. And the Truth is, there are more wide-doorway pseudo-conversions than there are genuine (narrow-doorway) conversions.
Now, the very fact that there are pseudo-conversions tells us that there are unregenerate folks who will receive some Bible truths at some level in their deceitful and desperately/unknowably wicked hearts . (The Reformers noticed this over and over in Roman Catholicism.)
Next, notice that when we put this interesting fact alongside the fact that the pseudo-conversions do outnumber the genuine conversions, the evidential value of a person's testimony and smattering of Bible knowledge can be essentially neutralized by the display of lying spirit.
So, tell me again why I should be unwilling to warn doctrinal liars?
***
I can understand why non-Christians such as yourself don't like sermonic material on the wrath of God. And I can understand that you "burning bosom" folks can't stand serious discussions about Satanic counterfeiting.
And as I see it, the fact that you are the one who runs to give them your stinky balm of reassurance by attacking me is not a good sign for them.
I know next to nothing about the Westminster Confession, but how can it possibly bring Glory to God if a perfected person is thrown into hell? It would leave God Eternally wondering why His blood wasn't enough! And would make God a Blasphemer against Himself. It would be horrible in so many ways. Think about it!
Read none and don't intend to start.
That was a spooky study. I had never realized how much material there is in the Bible on the topic of spurious conversions. Most people never bother to pull it all together.
Truly!
By the way, you ought to read Spurgeon's sermon on Hebrews 6 and the verse about those "who were enlightened...partakers of the Holy Ghost...[etc]." It was the lead article on one of the later Perfection in Faith threads.
Spurgeon takes the position--different from, say, John Owen's position--that the verse "If they should fall away" is not talking about something which can happen, but about something which cannot happen.
It's a theologically tricky position to defend, but I think Spurgeon's interpretation is correct. It makes the larger passage a very strange, very wonderful passage, indeed! I pity the folks who just can't see it.
AND THE FUNNY THING IS, HEBREWS 10:14 ("PERFECTED FOREVER") IS THE CLINCHER FOR SPURGEON"S INTERPRETATION. GWB JUST CAN'T SEE IT.
Actually, I'm glad you offered this less than thoughtful comment. It shows more thoughtful FReepers that you are just a Wesleyan slanderer.
My pride is not at issue here. Instructing teachable FReepers (i.e., FReepers other than you) is the issue. Part of the spiritual exercise of instruction, when God is pleased to be in that work of instruction, is God's providential use of objectors to make it even easier for spiritually-minded folks to see who is on the right side in the controversy.
I think that many folks reading your post will see that you are just being crass and insulting. You are desperately trying to neutralize the careful effort which I put into my post #14, but I say that your little post will backfire on you with any elect FReeper who reads our exchange.
You see, all of your insinuations about my pride and arrogance are completely off the mark. For reasons beyond my ken, I do happen to be a reasonably good workman rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and I will tell you point-blank that, all of my carnal failings notwithstanding, I am fully aware of my reasonable competence in handling God's Word. In Paul's words, I need not be ashamed.
So, I have no intentions of being a mealy-mouthed snake who is fit only to have his head stomped.
Heck, drot, my basic arguments concerning Romans 9 are inarguably correct. The fact that doctrinal cranks will continually defy me in my arguments actually vindicates me. You can't answer the arguments. Romans 9 is obviously talking about salvation and damnation. It is therefore obviously talking about election and reprobation.
For the sake of the cause of God and Truth, I am pleased to see Mormons and Wesleyans and the occasional Romanist attack my historic Protestant understanding of the text. Again, it is precisely because elect FReepers will notice that the historic Protestant position is correct. In other words, having objectors like you facilitates clarity of understanding in spiritually sober FReepers.
Am I overstating the role of providence in this? No. My authority is 1 Corinthians 11:19. You are being used as God's Own tool for confirming my exposition. And since we are talking about Romans 9, I would even go so far as to say that God is using you as a Pharaoh. Your heart has been hardened against the Truth. Like Pharaoh, you are desperately trying to keep folks enslaved in anti-Protestant lies.
And by my exposition and application of the correct sense of Paul's warnings in this very regard, others will, I trust, be taught the FEAR OF GOD, without which they will not have even the beginning of wisdom.
As I have repeatedly stated on these threads, most of today's churchgoers really don't know the God of the Bible. They think He's just the guy on the smiling face buttons. They're badly mistaken.
spudgin to CCWoody: Your #49: Truly! I am frankly astounded, Woody, that you could even say this after all I've written on the topic. I myself used very much that same argument only two weeks ago with my Sunday school teacher, who is a four-pointer (does not accept Limited Atonement).
I absolutely affirm the Perseverance of the Saints (i.e. eternal security). You will find that I have repeatedly affirmed it hundreds of times on these threads. Literally, hundreds of times. There is no conceivable way that the precious blood of Christ, if shed for you, could be shed in vain. The Father would never allow the precious blood of His Son to have been shed for nothing. Not even one drop of our Saviour's blood was shed in vain. And it certainly was never wasted upon the hellbound. The Father would never permit it. There is real anger I often feel toward the Arminians, that they suggest that Christ's blood could have been shed in vain! If His blood was shed for you, you will endure to the end and spend eternity with God. If you did not, then Christ could not save anyone. If His blood was not shed for you, you can never even be in the presence of God as you would be so utterly unholy that the Father would cast you away for your unholiness. That is, in many ways, the real meaning of the sancification in Hebrews 10:14. Jesus set aside the Old Covenant, never satisfying to either men or to God, and offered Himself as the once-only and perfect sacrifice, the New Covenant, never to be repeated. He rose to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father to intercede for us and to be the only and eternal sanctification we can rely upon to approach the Father. It is that perfection of His sacrifice which sanctifies us forever (meaning as Calvin and Stuart pointed out: continuously, not eternally). That is what they read. As did Owen, Henry, Darby, Spurgeon and the great Confessions.
Fellows, don't you see that this verse tells us how we have escaped the bondage of the Old Covenant and how God included Gentiles in His plan? It's so wonderful. Please reconsider what you're saying and look again. There's someting truly wonderful in Hebrews 10:1-18. It's a beautiful promise to us as well as Paul's warning to Judaizers.
It seems very clear that you have somehow concluded that Hebrews 10:14 is the only support for Perseverance of the Saints in the entire Bible! I fully adhere to the TULIP. But, unlike doc and Jerry and Uriel, I find it where the scholars of the Reformation found it, where Calvin found it. Good grief! Until doc started in on RnMom over his "sanctified=saved" and went crazy over it, all three of them had found it elsewhere in the Bible too! The last several months, to read their (mostly doc's) comments, you'd think that 10:14 was the only place it was found in scripture. And Woody's remarks indicate that that is exactly what he's thinking. And it can easily be demonstrated that this tiff over 10:14 is more than a little strange considering their past posts on that very topic. Hebrews 10:14 is actually a very wonderful verse with its own special meaning within the context of Hebrews 10:1-18. Eternal security (Perseverance) certainly does not stand or fall upon this single verse. My concerns that someone would actually think so have finally been vindicated. The strangeness of the debate over that verse has actually led you (and probably many others) to conclude that Calvinists find their Eternal Security only in Hebrews 10:14. And it simply could not be further from the truth. It was not true during the Reformation. And it's not true today either.
Our eternal security, our assurance of the perseverance of the saints is strongly expressed elsewhere in scripture. Hebrews 10 lays out very beautifully the nature of our Saviour's sacrifice for us and the superiority of it over the vain Jewish temple ritual and demonstrates its eternal perfection, that it never needs or should be repeated. Think about it! Never to be repeated. Like the way the Romanists crucify Christ again and again in their blasphemous Mass. Because if it ever had to be repeated, that would demonstrate that Christ was not Christ and that His sacrifice did not sanctify Gentiles and Jews alike before God.
Though I'm not as fond of them as I am of Calvin's exposition, both Henry and especially Darby lay this out in a wonderful way. I would recommend you read Calvin and then Darby. You'll see more fully what a wonderful teaching Hebrews 10 contains.
Verses 1-10 The apostle having shown that the tabernacle, and ordinances of the covenant of Sinai, were only emblems and types of the gospel, concludes that the sacrifices the high priests offered continually, could not make the worshippers perfect, with respect to pardon, and the purifying of their consciences. But when "God manifested in the flesh," became the sacrifice, and his death upon the accursed tree the ransom, then the Sufferer being of infinite worth, his free-will sufferings were of infinite value. The atoning sacrifice must be one capable of consenting, and must of his own will place himself in the sinner's stead: Christ did so. The fountain of all that Christ has done for his people, is the sovereign will and grace of God. The righteousness brought in, and the sacrifice once offered by Christ, are of eternal power, and his salvation shall never be done away. They are of power to make all the comers thereunto perfect; they derive from the atoning blood, strength and motives for obedience, and inward comfort.
Verses 11-18 Under the new covenant, or gospel dispensation, full and final pardon is to be had. This makes a vast difference between the new covenant and the old one. Under the old, sacrifices must be often repeated, and after all, only pardon as to this world was to be obtained by them. Under the new, one Sacrifice is enough to procure for all nations and ages, spiritual pardon, or being freed from punishment in the world to come. Well might this be called a new covenant. Let none suppose that human inventions can avail those who put them in the place of the sacrifice of the Son of God. What then remains, but that we seek an interest in this Sacrifice by faith; and the seal of it to our souls, by the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience? So that by the law being written in our hearts, we may know that we are justified, and that God will no more remember our sins.
The fact that you posed this question as an objection against the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 is an independent witness that we Calvinists are reading Romans 9 correctly. And Paul is warning you in particular about the problem of doctrinal hard-heartedness.
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:18&19
Sorry the_doc but i don't think I did any such thing.
The Lord be with you,
Nukem
To: RnMomof7
The paradox of Calvinism is the saved are sure to be saved and the lost are sure to be lost..Nothing you do makes a difference
IF that were the case, why would Jesus have us out preaching and evangelizing? Does the Lord have nothing better for us to do than waste our time? I think not.
And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:14&16
Now why would Jesus have us go and preach the gospel to every creature if not to evangelize? And if to evangelize, then what is the goal of evangelizing but to lead others to salvation.
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:12-17
And if those who are Saved are Saved and those who are damned are damned, then what about this:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:14-21
Nukem
174 Posted on 09/05/2001 14:45:03 PDT by Alas [ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
This is one of my favorite scriptural pictures
Any that would look in faith would be saved...a typology of Christ on the cross..
Numbers 21:7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
21:8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
21:9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
The people saw their sin...and repented...the solution was to look in faith at the serpent on a pole..and live...
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