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Why Did It Happen?
LewRockwell.com ^ | Rob Moody

Posted on 09/13/2001 5:44:30 AM PDT by sendtoscott

Why Did It Happen?

by Rob Moody

Crisis is the rallying cry of a tyrant. ~ James Madison

As I followed the coverage of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on Tuesday, a number of thoughts occurred to me. I have seen very little, if any, coverage of these items by the mainstream media:

The intelligence failure by the federal government was total and complete. The primary raison d’etre given for the State is that it protects us from those who would do us harm. But in this case, it couldn’t even protect the headquarters of its own protection agency.

The security failure by the government was total and complete. The government operates and provides security for virtually every major airport in America. How could four airplanes be hijacked in one morning? How much time, money and energy does the government spend searching passengers and luggage for drugs, cash and other harmless contraband when it should be looking for guns and knives?

President Bush said the federal government would find the perpetrators and punish them (the focus is always on retribution instead of trying to understand why it happened in the first place). But it seems that many, if not most, of those people are now dead. Bush said that freedom had been attacked and that freedom would be defended. I cringed when I heard those words, because they sounded like Newspeak. No, it was hegemony that was attacked, and freedom will be sacrificed to defend hegemony.

Hawks such as Senators John McCain and Chuck Hagel have already started beating the war drum, calling the attacks "an act of war" and "a second Pearl Harbor." Of course they’re an act of war; our government has been at war with other countries and peoples since the beginning of the 20th century. Only after a battle takes place on American soil do we realize this. "Hey, tonight’s baseball game has been canceled. What’s going on?" Of course, politicians love war since it always results in the expansion of state power. As Randolph Bourne said, "War is the health of the State."

I’m sure the neocon warmongers at National Review and The Weekly Standard are berserk with rage right now, and will call on Bush to nuke some Third World country, lest America be "humiliated" again like it was with China. Meanwhile, the unindicted war criminals Henry Kissinger, Sandy Berger and Richard Holbrooke called on the U.S. to "respond" by committing the same crimes they have committed.

September 11 was a black day for Liberty. I am extremely concerned that politicians will use these attacks as Hitler used the Reichstag fire to suspend civil liberties and consolidate his power. I can only imagine what kind of legislation New York’s senators – who happen to be two of the most tyrannical members of Congress (if Hillary were President, she would have already suspended the Constitution and imposed martial law) – will propose "to prevent something like this from happening again." As Claire Wolfe wrote on Tuesday, "They--Rudman, Hart, Gingrich, FEMA, the military, and all the creepy corporations who sell them their spy cameras, their bio-war supplies, their retina scanners, their metal detectors, and the other gear of the crushing Big Brother state--have been waiting for something like this to happen." Whatever Schumer & Co. propose – war, more police power, censorship of the Internet, gun registration – Congress will approve it so they can be seen as "doing something," and the American sheeple will gladly surrender what few rights they have left in return for their newfound "security."

Doesn’t this make the idea of spending $100 billion or more on a missile defense shield seem awfully foolish? It seems that individuals armed with knives and box cutters pose a more immediate threat. But the politicians will point to these attacks as proof that we need a missile defense shield more than ever.

What surprised me the most about the attacks was not that they were carried out, but that they were conventional in nature. For the last several years, I have been expecting a nuclear, biological or chemical attack on a large American city. If you thought there was panic on Tuesday (911 operators were flooded with calls, there was fear of a bank run, the price of gas shot up to $5 a gallon in some places, etc.), wait until they attack a city with Sarin or anthrax.

It seems to me that the vast majority of Americans reflexively want to "respond," presumably militarily, instead of trying to understand why this happened in the first place. As long as they can strike back with a few hundred cruise missiles, they’re not really interested in why they were attacked.

I was disturbed by the almost mindless jingoism I heard on Tuesday, which I last saw after the Gulf War. One veteran said this made him want to "re-up" (re-enlist in the military). Why? So he could be sent overseas by politicians to kill people he didn’t know, and perpetuate the cycle of violence? It is one thing to love your country. It is quite another to want to kill people who have never done you any harm. I now see how FDR could manipulate a populace that was much less educated and informed into wanting to go to war. One caller to a radio show described how a woman was standing on the side of the road, waving an American flag (Why?), and reiterated that this was "one country, indivisible." The talk show host responded by saying that everyone should fly an American flag every day anyway, and implied that a lack of patriotism contributed to the attacks. I submit that the truth is just the opposite. It is our unthinking, unquestioning patriotism that causes us to mindlessly support the politicians every time they want to bomb another country. The more patriotic we are, the more the politicians bomb, and the more the rest of the world despises us.

I have heard virtually no discussion about the motive of the attackers. It seems to me that it would be the key to understanding why this happened and preventing something like this from happening again. I don’t know which group is responsible, but given the way Palestinians were celebrating in the streets, I would not be surprised if it was a Middle Eastern group that was violently opposed to the state of Israel. Assuming that’s the case, why did they come halfway around the world to attack America? They attacked America because America has been attacking them on almost a weekly basis since at least the 1970s. From Libya to Afghanistan, we have bombed, shelled, invaded, occupied, sanctioned, embargoed, spied on, inspected and otherwise meddled in the affairs of virtually every country in the Middle East. The U.S. government has two basic policies for countries in the Middle East: either it’s giving them billions of dollars in aid each year or it’s bombing them; there is no in-between, no neutrality. They also attacked America because the U.S. government has been giving billions of dollars of economic and military aid to the Israeli government, which has used that aid to repress and kill Palestinians.

When will we learn to have, as Jefferson said, "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none"? You reap what you sow, and on September 11, America finally reaped its bitter harvest.

September 13, 2001

Rob Moody [send him mail] is a financial planner in Atlanta and lives in Kennesaw, where every household is required to own a gun. He also edits Strike The Root.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
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1 posted on 09/13/2001 5:44:30 AM PDT by sendtoscott
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To: sendtoscott
Go to Hell, Mr. Moody.
2 posted on 09/13/2001 5:47:09 AM PDT by BurkeanCyclist
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To: sendtoscott
Excellent article
3 posted on 09/13/2001 5:50:45 AM PDT by Ada Coddington
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To: sendtoscott
Start by carpet-bombing and napalming LewRockwell.com, followed immediately by additional attacks against your buddy, Raimondo, over at antiwar.com.

What a nest of vipers.

4 posted on 09/13/2001 5:53:22 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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To: sendtoscott
the focus is always on retribution instead of trying to understand why it happened in the first place

Idiots like Moody can speculate on the why all they want. We'll have years to do that.

Right now we help the victims, seek the perpetrators and stand together as Americans. If Moody is seeking the "reason this happened" it can be found in the fact that thousands of Americans died Tuesday (and countless numbers in our 200+ years) because America gives people like him the freedom to spew their imbecilic swill without having their sorry clymers hauled off to the pokey.

5 posted on 09/13/2001 5:54:30 AM PDT by Ward Smythe
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To: sendtoscott
"When will we learn to have, as Jefferson said, "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none"?"

Wasn't it Jefferson who declared war on the Barbary Pirates when they were attacking our merchant marine? Wasn't it Jefferson who was President during our Quasi-War with France, when they didn't want us trading with Britain? I don't recall, in either event, we were doing anything except minding our own business in those events.

I guess, by your definition, it was our fault then as well. Mightn't it be that there is evil in the world and it just doesn't like us because we stand in its way?

6 posted on 09/13/2001 5:56:40 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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To: sendtoscott
This is neither the time nor place to voice these ideas, it is much too late. We are now at war and this article borders on treason.
7 posted on 09/13/2001 5:57:12 AM PDT by TightSqueeze
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To: BurkeanCyclist
The intelligence failure by the federal government was total and complete

This dude is right. It could not have happened in Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.

I think someone has played T ball with this guys head. I hope they didn't damage their bat.

8 posted on 09/13/2001 5:58:56 AM PDT by Common Tator
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To: sendtoscott
Mr. Moody, I hope for the sake of your customers that you know more about financial planning than you do about partiotism and the United States of America.

You sound a little stressed. Maybe you could use a vacation. Take a few weeks off and go overseas for awhile...get away to an exotic destination. I hear Afghanistan is lovely this time of year...

9 posted on 09/13/2001 6:02:42 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: Common Tator
ROTFL, CT. First time since the 11th. Thanks.
10 posted on 09/13/2001 6:04:12 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Frumanchu
Take a few weeks off and go overseas for awhile...get away to an exotic destination. I hear Afghanistan is lovely this time of year...

Another thanks is due...and a bump.

11 posted on 09/13/2001 6:05:18 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: one_particular_harbour
Right. bump
13 posted on 09/13/2001 6:11:25 AM PDT by oyez
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To: sendtoscott

The image of Libertarian smugness, naivete, and hubris all rolled into one.


14 posted on 09/13/2001 6:11:51 AM PDT by Dane
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To: mike2right
Idiots like Moody can speculate on the why all they want. We'll have years to do that.

Why is everything so reactive? Why is it not reasonable to be proactive.. to go to the root of the problem and correct it.... rather than having to use military power after the fact. Is there any possibility in your mind that American foreign policy needs to be changed? And why are you so afraid of the ideas of others?

15 posted on 09/13/2001 6:13:01 AM PDT by Beenliedto
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To: TightSqueeze
This is neither the time nor place to voice these ideas, it is much too late. We are now at war and this article borders on treason.

Balderdash. There's plenty of treason going on in this country, but this article is not part of it.

16 posted on 09/13/2001 6:14:44 AM PDT by Beenliedto
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To: one_particular_harbour
Good morning, Patriot, friend, and LOLuver.
17 posted on 09/13/2001 6:16:24 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Beenliedto
Yes, American foreign policy neds to be changed. We need to be even more proactive. We need to kill terrorists wherever we find them. We need to inform our allies that if they continue to support terrorist states, then they will become our enemies. We need to be prepared for real war, rather than the video-game variety we've been playing at for the last quarter-century. What we must not do is surrender to the terrorists.
18 posted on 09/13/2001 6:17:10 AM PDT by BurkeanCyclist
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To: Beenliedto
Why is it not reasonable to be proactive.. to go to the root of the problem and correct it....

Good point. Let's mount an attack now on Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and any other nation known to harbor and/or sponsor terrorists. Why wait until they do this again? Solve the problem.

The truth is these people covet the power and influence of the United States. Given the same power, do you honestly think these people would bring peace to the world? Does our foreign policy need to change? Absolutely...we need to stop treading so lightly and take firmer positions. Stop worrying about what the European Socialist Union or anyone else will think and focus on doing the right thing.

19 posted on 09/13/2001 6:22:34 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: sendtoscott
When will we learn to have, as Jefferson said, "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none"?

Just as soon as pigs fly out of your naive, paranoid ass. Putz.

20 posted on 09/13/2001 6:31:58 AM PDT by Chief Inspector Clouseau
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To: Beenliedto
Why is it not reasonable to be proactive.. to go to the root of the problem and correct it.... rather than having to use military power after the fact....And why are you so afraid of the ideas of others?

I'm not the least bit afraid of the ideas of others. We need that. But there is a time and a place. Thousands have died, thousands of families and friends don't yet know if there loved ones are safe.

Our government IS being proactive, and from what I've seen getting some pretty darn good evidence and that right soon. We don't know that our government WILL take military action, or at least to what extent.

Let our President and the government do their jobs. Analyze later. But for now (emphasis on the now), we should all remember what our mommas taught us, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all."

21 posted on 09/13/2001 10:33:15 AM PDT by Ward Smythe
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To: mike2right
Rob Moody is correct. This is not the time for knee-perk jingoism (I purposefully do not use the word patriotism). Why is it now we trust our President, our Congress and the Government? Because they start waving the flag and talking as one? How we are going to know how to react unless we know who, what, where, why and how? War is an extension of politics and if we just react how do we know we are doing what is right? Do we not realize that it was and is our policies that have brought this about. The bombings, the uncritical support of Israel, the support and overthrow of various regimes and the New World Order. It is time to come together and return our country to the policies enunciated by the greatest American, George Washington. If we just go in and bomb and kill without determining the reasons for terrorist attacks then we might just succeed in cutting off one of the Hydra's heads only to find it replaced by many others. The result of that will be more American dead and more of our freedom's lost.
22 posted on 09/13/2001 8:47:09 PM PDT by littlehammer
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: sendtoscott
Moody= mush brains .

American intellegence failed... oh me oh my ! Liberatarians who speak so fondly of American rights to pretty much do whatever we please under the law without being bugged seem to think that we should have KGB ?

Hi Kanada . I've got adoption papers for you !

Cheese.

Typist will soon be found in bed .

24 posted on 09/14/2001 1:20:13 AM PDT by AmericanCheeseFood
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To: littlehammer
Agree with you.
25 posted on 09/14/2001 1:36:00 AM PDT by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: sendtoscott
Good post.
26 posted on 09/14/2001 1:39:26 AM PDT by ExiledInTaiwan
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To: BlueLancer
Start by carpet-bombing and napalming LewRockwell.com, followed immediately by additional attacks against your buddy, Raimondo, over at antiwar.com.

What a nest of vipers.


Thank you for the incredible insight. I love the way you answered Mr. Moody's facts and analysis with the crushing logic of your reply.
27 posted on 09/14/2001 4:54:44 AM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: Frumanchu
Good point. Let's mount an attack now on Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and any other nation known to harbor and/or sponsor terrorists. Why wait until they do this again? Solve the problem.

The truth is these people covet the power and influence of the United States.


OK, foreign country bombing check list:
Libya - 1985
Syria - via proxy Israel a couple times (what's $3B/yr for, anyhow), plus during Lebanon in 1983-84
Iraq - 1991 - present
Iran - 1987, and via proxy Iraq 1980-1988
Pakistan - scratch that, they have the bomb, (plus we got them accidentally while bombing Afghanistan)
Afghanistan - 1998, Could be a problem since we armed them to fight the Soviets, and they won, but we're better than the Red Army, albeit an ocean plus a few thousand miles away with no direct land route to invade.

Huh, looks like we already attacked all these countries. Maybe they're not only covetous, as you point out, it could be that they're pissed too!
28 posted on 09/14/2001 5:10:03 AM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: sendtoscott
Geeze...

"The intelligence failure by the federal government was total and complete." Okay, why was that? While I think that it's unrealistic to expect intelligence to ferret out every evil act before it's done if you want to follow the roots of the failure go back to Frank Church. Don't take my word for it, do it yourself and draw your own conclusions.

"The security failure by the government was total and complete." Airport security? Hey, if anybody thought that airport security was more than something to irriate you and perhaps give you a false sense of security I have news for you, those poor folks at the "security checkpoint" aren't up to the task. Methinks that real security would have Mr. Moody screaming facism.

No dialog on motive? You haven't been paying attention Mr. Moody. I dunno where you've been but they've been saying what their motive is for a long time if you care to listen. It's still out there, spend a few minutes and find out for yourself. I hate to shock you, but their motive is that they want you dead.

I can't believe the stuff I'm seeing elsewhere about how we need to understand the motives of the attackers and get to the root cause of terrorism. They tried appeasement with Hitler. A clue for those not privvy to a "classic" education. It didn't work.

29 posted on 09/14/2001 5:14:27 AM PDT by Proud_texan
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To: matrix_dweller
Maybe they're not only covetous, as you point out, it could be that they're pissed too!

Oh no, didn't you know that all third world nations are honored to be bombed by our military for some superficial reason?.

The fact is that American's would rather not be bothered to ask the government the "Why's" until such time as it is too late, such as now.

---max

30 posted on 09/14/2001 5:45:26 AM PDT by max61
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To: littlehammer
Do we not realize that it was and is our policies that have brought this about. The bombings, the uncritical support of Israel, the support and overthrow of various regimes and the New World Order. It is time to come together and return our country to the policies enunciated by the greatest American, George Washington.

Undoubtedly these are contributory events, but the underlying hatred of the USA is based on that most useful (to Democratic and other demogogue politicians) of all emotions - ENVY. The Islamic fundamentalists hate us because they envy us. If we never intervened in any other country they would still hate us because they hate wealth. They hate accomplishment. They hate seeing success. Their hatred is based on the envy felt by the self-made loser for the self-made success. This is shown by the fact that their primary and most deadly attack was on the most visible symbol of accomplishment in the USA - the WTC. In this regard they are exactly the same as the supporters of Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, David Dinkins, Yassir Arafat, the Clintons etc. These Democratic tyrants are marginally more subtime in their attack on success and accomplishment in that they want to destroy it via taxes rather than fire, but the emothion is the same.

Now as to whether the fundamentalists would hate us enough to kill 10000 innocents and kill themselves in the process is another story. My guess that without the constant stirring like Slick Willie's "wag the dog" attack on the Sudan, and our constant politically motivated (Jewish vote) support of Israel they may not have been motived to commit Tuesday's atrocity, but they would still hate us because we are what they are not We don't live in squalor. We have a few freedoms that the fed hasn't gotten away to abrogating (yet). Those who live in poverty because of their own stupidity and lack of ambition hate those who work to get ahead. You see it when you see who elects Democrats that promise wealth redistribution. You see it when you see who supports "reparations." Islamic fundamentalists are human. Their hate filled politicians manipulate the same base nature of humanity that the race-baiters and socialists use in this country to get and keep power.

31 posted on 09/14/2001 5:45:49 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: BurkeanCyclist
The truth hurts doesn't it?.

---max

32 posted on 09/14/2001 5:45:55 AM PDT by max61
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To: from occupied ga
Undoubtedly these are contributory events, but the underlying hatred of the USA is based on that most useful (to Democratic and other demogogue politicians) of all emotions - ENVY

That's it! Envy. Switzerland, and the rest of Western Europe better watch out. The have higher average standards of living than the US, and they're closer to the terrorist. Yes, I think Envy explains everything. We better watch out for all those jealous Bolivian terrorists.
33 posted on 09/14/2001 6:00:22 AM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: matrix_dweller
Yes, I think Envy explains everything

I am amazed that you managed to completely miss my point. It took some effort on your part, but you did it - congratulations. IF you had bothered to read my whole post you would have seen the words

"Undoubtedly these are contributory ... "
In case you are hard of understanding, I'll paraphrase. There is no one reason for the attack. Our military stirring in every pot during the last 8 years is of course part of the motivation, but envy whipped up into frenzy is right up there with it. Many politicians all over the world thrive on power they get by stirring up the basest human emotions. All you have to do is look at our domestic crop to know that this is true.
34 posted on 09/14/2001 6:13:43 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: matrix_dweller
Cute. Now put it up next to a list of terrorist attacks sponsored by these countries or carried out by groups from them PRIOR TO these events. You want to make it even more one-sided...add body counts.

This "oh, they just did it because they were pissed at us and, well, can you really blame them?" defense of the massacre Tuesday is bullsh*t! If being a prosperous and freedom-promoting people is considered provocation, what are we to do? Become barbaric radicals like them so they will leave us alone? Be understanding of a dictator's need to poison and muder his own countrymen? Stand by as an entire region drives in against a people who we believe have legitimate claim on the land they occupy?

It's clear that the most successful propoganda campaign ever executed was the behind-the-scenes one during the 60's and 70's by the communists that has turned out a whole generation plus of spineless Americans who continually criticize one of the only countries that allows its citizens the right to do so. They are so convinced that the government is not to be trusted at all, that every action and word from it is to be met with skepticism, and that America is ultimately responsible for the evils of the world because we happen to have the most influence in it.

Try sticking up for the United States once in a while...it sticks up for you all the time.

35 posted on 09/14/2001 6:31:59 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: Frumanchu
At least Neville Chamberline can finally rest easy, he's finally been forgotten.
36 posted on 09/14/2001 6:58:23 AM PDT by Proud_texan
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To: Frumanchu
Cute. Now put it up next to a list of terrorist attacks sponsored by these countries or carried out by groups from them PRIOR TO these events. You want to make it even more one-sided...add body counts.

Tell you what. Why don't you post the terrorist attacks on the US with dates. You'll see that we replaced the democratically elected president of Iran with the dictatorial Shah in the 1950's. 20+ years before they took hostages. Our response: bomb them and aid Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. That's just one example. I leave the rest to you as a history lesson. The attacks on 9-11 were are NOT justifiable. They were a dispicable act of mass murder. They are, sadly, explainable. So, go ahead and post away; you might end up changing your own opinion a bit.
37 posted on 09/14/2001 8:21:36 AM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: matrix_dweller
Matrix - Let's say for the sake of argument all those geopolitical issues are true and the US has been in the wrong multiple times.

Given that I'd like to opine that regardless of that the current events were probably going to happen anyway. Simply an opinion, I can't prove it, but bear with me.

Why? Our founding document, radical 225 years ago, is no less radical today. What makes it special is it's promise of the "unalienable rights" of every person including "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." American's are not _obligated_ to give themselves to a higher purpose.

What seems to drive others crazy is that we don't see those persuits as a right, we take them for granted. IMO others see this as us being selfish and shallow. This is nothing new, this has been going on for decades. Ditto what appears to them as our lust for wealth (and perhaps the reason the WTC was a target). Money is still considered the root of all evil in many cultures.

It's not limited to those outside of the US. Yesterday or the day before I read a column (can't remember where) that we have lost the "safe and coddled life" we have enjoyed. "Coddled"? To persue what our founders considered our God given right? To be safe from insanity?

Our freedom is a threat to those that wish to control and nothing inflames them more than our model. It was bad enough when it was limited to the US but now millions and millions see us as the shining city on the hill. Nothing threatens tyrants and terrorists more than a concept that will destroy everything they wish to maintain.

Mix in some religious beliefs (don't take my word for it, check out the Koran, Jihad and infidels) and you have a pretty strong brew.

Again, I can't prove this, just like we can't prove that if the events you mention hadn't happened this wouldn't have happened, but I know absolutely that there are people that created events that I don't understand through a very, very long historical lens; Stalin and Hitler for two, other than the filter of wanting power and wanting to destroy.

I appreciate your consideration of these ideas.

38 posted on 09/14/2001 9:52:07 AM PDT by Proud_texan
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To: matrix_dweller
Do we have to 'prove' our patriotism by how high we wave the flag and with how much vehemence we denounce the terrorists? I have no need to prove my patriotism and I certainly can't prove it by wearing red, white and blue. It is more a time to be humble and reflect upon our failings as a people in allowing our leaders to bring us to this point. The world is not perfectible, no more than your next door neighbor is perfectible and we cannot go around trying to correct every problem and give them the beneficience of our materialistic culture. We correct ourselves and try to set a good example. The words of the greatest American, George Washington would be appropriate: "Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and Morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and, at no distant period, a great Nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people guided by an exalted justice and benevolence...Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a Nation with its Virtue?...In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential, than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular Nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded...Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable...The Nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the Government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The Government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times, it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of Nations has been the victim.. Maybe it is time to listen to General Washington and not the pundits and politicians.
39 posted on 09/14/2001 9:56:31 AM PDT by littlehammer
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To: TightSqueeze
"TREASON?"

Powerful word.

Since it IS WAR, can we expect to find TightSqueeze down at the local recruiting office later today? Maybe you'll get lucky and beat Bill Clinton there.

Me? I put MY 4 years in the USAF during the "thing" in Nam.

40 posted on 09/14/2001 10:39:33 AM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: matrix_dweller
There was once a time when America chose to stay out of most conflicts outside our borders. We stepped into WWI when our friends needed us. We tried to stay out of further conflict, but the Japanese made that impossible. It was a whole different world after that. We realized that we could no longer stand back and only step in at the last minute. There was too much of a threat to our way of life. Russia rose from WWII to become a giant and quite obviously had expansionist goals. We had no choice but to follow suit in expanding our influence to prevent a political (and eventually, a military) empire from rising out of the ashes of the Third Reich. Much of what we've done since has been to make sure we never face another Nazi Germany. We have most certainly made some mistakes, but the intention has almost always been to protect the freedom of Americans and anyone else who calls on us to protect that same freedom in their nation.

These people want to destroy our way of life. It's my government's job to make sure that never happens. That this attack was predictible and expected does not mean we deserved it or were asking for it. There have been and always will be people who loathe the United States of America, no matter what our foreign policy.

41 posted on 09/14/2001 10:54:04 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: Proud_texan
Texan,

I completely agree that radical Islam is part of the mix. I am not a fan of Islam, at all, having seen first hand the results in Bosnia and Kosovo. It's interesting that Serbs, Columbians and Macedonians are not now, nor were they ever on the "short list" of suspects put out by the media. They're Christians, or agnostic / aetheists, like much of the west. Either way, the suicide bomber is a foreign concept outside of Islam, or Japan. Although now that they've been westernized, I don't see to many kamakazi's protesting our bases in Okinawa or Japan. So, yes, Islam, at least in the radical form found in poorer Islamic countries, is part of the problem. There is something else in the mix, and we have a good "control" to validate our thought experiment.

None of the "stan" former Soviet Islamic countries have given us any problems. They are poor, largley Muslim, and have suicide bombers (viz. - Chechnya). Could it be that since we never dared bomb them during their time in the Soviet Union, they have no motivation to suicide bomb us? Agree or not, I appreciate you taking the time to make a fact based argument.
42 posted on 09/14/2001 11:03:50 AM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: matrix_dweller
Matrix - I would only offer that perhaps one of the reason those factions aren't in the mix is that 1) they're occupied with more immediate, local issues and they 2) don't have the capacity/organization/finances at present but again, I'm in the area of pure speculation and conjecture.

A good discussion and I thank you for it but I'll remain convinced that it is motivated more or as much about who we are rather than what we've done. But that brings up another question. At this point do we cut our support of our allies in the region?

43 posted on 09/14/2001 11:28:32 AM PDT by Proud_texan
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To: Frumanchu
...snipped history lesson..

These people want to destroy our way of life.
Agree. Why?

It's my government's job to make sure that never happens.
Agree again, confer Declaration of Independance, purpose of government.

That this attack was predictible and expected does not mean we deserved it or were asking for it.

Completely agree again, and glad to see that you appear to be taking my point (and Mr. Moody's): US intervention in Islamic countries abroad has lead sadly and predictably to retaliation.

There have been and always will be people who loathe the United States of America, no matter what our foreign policy.
Here is where you and I break ranks. The Swiss have no problem with foreign terrorists, although they are democratic, have a satanic/almighty dollar economy (swiss bank account, anyone?), western, Christian, and a h*ll of a lot closer to the middle east. Why? They're neutral, and have mostly stayed that way since founding in 1291. Yes, I know they're socialist. No, I don't want to move there. The US followed that foreign policy for the first 80 years, which were remarkably peaceful after we sent the King packing twice in a row.
44 posted on 09/14/2001 11:28:36 AM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: Frumanchu
Times change, principles do not. I beg to differ about our "friends" and I am sure you mean the Brits and French. I would be more apt to say they used us. The Brits have the singular ability of propaganda and intrigue and they used it well in WWI and WWII. WWI was a European War and would have ended like the endless European Wars of the past without our "assistance". With our "assistance" we allowed a vindictive England and France to dictate horrendous terms upon the Germans for a war these 'friends' were also responsible for. The Versaille Peace agreed to by the internationalist Wilson and our 'friends'lead to the rise of Hitler. So dear FDR, another internationalist, wants us in the next European War but the Germans won't accomodate despite his numerous provocations. Beloved FDR manuevers the Japanese into attacking us and we get into the war by the backdoor. The only real victors in WWII were the Soviets and do not tell me freedom won out in Europe when we allowed the Soviets to occupy East and Central Europe. Then began a series of our 'police actions', CIA involvements around the world, vast amounts of American tax money spent around the world and American lives lost on crusades for democracy. Have we achieved anything by this? Yes! We are hated more around the world and we have more enemies. If we follow the policies planned for this war by this government we will need to overthrow various governments and install new ones. These new ones will be known by the populace for what they are: puppet governments. They will need to be supported by American soldiers and American money. They will be prime targets for attack. Our American servicemen have, for almost 100 years, been the pawns of internationalists and though any American blood spilled is never in vain (we must honor them for their sacrifices)we must realize that the policies and lies of the internationalists and NWO types have not succeeded. They have only brought on new wars and new enemies. Punish the terrorists but correct the policies that brought this about.
45 posted on 09/14/2001 11:57:54 AM PDT by littlehammer
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To: littlehammer
bold off. Bump. That is one of the best summaries of the last 100 years of US foreign policy I've seen.
46 posted on 09/14/2001 12:17:08 PM PDT by matrix_dweller
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To: matrix_dweller
truth bump
47 posted on 09/17/2001 10:23:40 PM PDT by ak47fred
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To: Frumanchu
"You sound a little stressed. Maybe you could use a vacation. Take a few weeks off and go overseas for awhile...get away to an exotic destination. I hear Afghanistan is lovely this time of year...

Will you perhaps be over there any time soon with your M-16 tough guy?

Or, do you prefer to talk tough, but send others off to do your dying for you?

48 posted on 09/18/2001 9:26:14 AM PDT by KO5A (Like McNamara, Kissenger, GWB, GHWB (WRT family), WJC?)
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To: BurkeanCyclist
"Yes, American foreign policy neds to be changed. We need to be even more proactive. We need to kill terrorists wherever we find them. We need to inform our allies that if they continue to support terrorist states, then they will become our enemies. We need to be prepared for real war, rather than the video-game variety we've been playing at for the last quarter-century. What we must not do is surrender to the terrorists.

I assume you've got your combat boots on, your orders in hand, and your one way ticket to Afganistan waiting for you at the airport soldier?

49 posted on 09/18/2001 9:29:47 AM PDT by KO5A (And a note to bin Laden himself on each bullet?)
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To: sendtoscott
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50 posted on 09/18/2001 9:32:23 AM PDT by WIMom
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