M-1 versus AR-15 versus FN-FAL versus 12-Gauge: What to buy in a time of crisis?

Classic Free Republic Threads ^ | 9-14-2001 | Flaming Vanity

[SlickWillard]

Not to be paranoid, but I have a bad feeling about this war we're entering. This summer I socialized with some Arabs, and, quite frankly, they're not the friendliest people in the world. Plus, they know my home address. Just to be on the safe side, I'd like to purchase a rifle or a shotgun in the next few days, but I have very little experience in these matters. I have long followed the FR threads on these matters (see below), and was hoping to draw on the expertise of the FR community. I am told that if I pass the phone-in test, I should be able to purchase a long gun or rifle in about 15 minutes. Would you please help me, and other Freepers like me, by offering your ideas about weapons for use in times of civil unrest? If possible:

1) Please limit your suggestions to things that the consumer has a reasonable chance to purchase in a store near his or her home. You aren't going to walk into the gun store down the street and find a $5000 fifty-caliber sniper cannon with a $1500 telescope.

2) Please limit your discussion to the practical effectiveness of the weapon, not its theoretical effectiveness. Theoretically, in close quarters, a fully automatic M-16 is superior to a semi-automatic M1, but, in practice, the consumer can only purchase a semi-automatic M-16 (AR-15). Theoretically, at 500 meters, a semi-automatic M1 is superior to a fully automatic M-16, but, in practice, unless you build your house next to the Bonneville salt flats, you'll never encounter a 500 meter line of sight.

3) Remember, the weapon has to be a long gun (rifle) that can be purchased on the spot. No handguns, or anything else that requires a waiting period. Note that this rules out the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). Also, we're talking complete, fully functioning weapons here. You don't have six weeks to assemble the weapon from the very best parts made by the very best machine shops.

4) The cost of the ammo is very nearly as important as cost of the weapon. If a round costs $5, the newbie can't afford to become familiar with the weapon.

5) The tables below don't mention shotguns, because they haven't been the subject of much discussion here at FR. A pump action shotgun is probably about the best weapon you can have in close quarters (that, or a very large, very aggressive canine). Please give any suggestions you have concerning reliable, reasonably priced pump action shotguns and their shells.

6) Much of the information in the tables that follow is probably wrong. Don't hesitate to point out any mistakes or fallacies that you spot.

7) Finally, and most sadly, the weapon is not for killing squirrels, rabbits or deer. Instead, the weapon is to be kept at your side, in case the bad guys show up at your house and present a "you or them" situation. The purpose of the weapon is to maximize the probability that it's them, not you.

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Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
M1	Springfield Fulton Arrington	highly accurate to 500m simple mechanics, less prone to jamming large rounds will pass through small trees elegant, classic weapon	rifle expensive ($1250-$3500) ammo expensive ($2.00 per round) ? problems with ammo specs ? (metric versus English) ? problems with ammo availability ? large caliber means large recoil large caliber means no target practice near civilization
Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
M-16/AR-15	Bushmaster Fulton Hesse Compass Lake Arrington Olympic Professional Ordnance	moderately priced rifle ($750-$1500) moderately priced ammo ($1.00 per round) widely available small caliber means small recoil	lots of parts, prone to jamming small caliber rounds easily diverted by leaves, blades of grass not accurate at great distance
Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
AR-10	Armalite	large caliber rounds	rifle expensive ($1200 - $2500) ammo expensive, proprietary ($4 per round) large caliber means large recoil ? mechanical stability ?
Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
FN-FAL	DS Arms Hesse Olympic	moderately priced rifle ($500-$1250) moderately priced ammo ($1.00 per round) large caliber indestructible	? availability in U.S. stores ? foreign design ? problems with ammo specs ? (metric versus English) large caliber means large recoil inaccurate at distance

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For Sale:

http://www.gunbroker.com
(a division of ebay)

http://www.galleryofguns.com

http://www.auctionarms.com

http://www.shotgunnews.com

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THANKS!

[sasquatch]

you don't get it

[Dan from Michigan]

Well, right now, I can't afford another rifle.

I do have a 30-06 Remington and a 12 gauge 835 Mossberg, and also can PROBABLY get a hold of an M1 Garand within 20 minutes if need be.

If the SHTF, and I had one choice of weapon, I'd want the Mossberg.

[SlickWillard]

you don't get it

Huh?

[RLK]

Don't forget the M1 carbine. Light, reliable, copper jacket will penetrate 15 inches of pine wood and still keep going.

[parsifal]

I have never shot the guns you listed. An Ak-47 though is very sweet. No recoil so to speak. Aimable with little practice. I have heard the SKS is good and very similar. I do not know if you can still get 30 round clips, but those are nice. You can go thru one in about 7-8 seconds very easily.

For close in work, I like the Dan Wesson 357 w/6inch barrel. Loud as heck, but once again, you can usually hit what you aim at with little practice.

For canines, I suggest pit bulls. Very sweet dogs and very lovable. Bestest breed that ever was IMHO. But, they are loyal and do not need to be taught to defend their people.

[SlickWillard]

If the SHTF, and I had one choice of weapon, I'd want the Mossberg.

They've got like a gazillion models:

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/model835.htm

Any suggestions on what features to look for, or what features to avoid?

[gunsofbrixton]

Mosberg 500 or remington 870 with extended mag and foldover stock for close in, you can vary the rounds to suit your situation and grandma can hit the broadside of a barn first time out, good general purpose weapon. out to 200 yards run a .223,mini 14 , ar-15 etc. good availabiltiy of ammo. If you need to reach out and touch someone a .308 is a good choice, again ammo availabilty Fn-fal is a good choice with some good machined american made recivers on the market. good luck and good hunting.

[okie_tech]

If you have very little experience and little time to practice, get the 12-gauge. Most fire fights are (according to FBI statistics) at close range and it will be easy for you to hit your target, also you can use some of the smaller loads to prevent your shots from going clear through all the walls in your house and hitting someone you do care about.

[LibKill]

I have very little experience in these matters.

1. Find a friend or make a friend who is an NRA member with some years experience in handling firearms.

2. Buy the shotgun. Pump would suit a novice well, but have your friend show you and help you practice with DUMMY SHELLS NOT LIVE ONES until you can load and unload the thing safely.

If the pump is too complex buy a double barrel. Easy to operate and you get two shots instead of one.

3. Go to the range. Learn to hit targets.

I recommend the shotgun because it has good stopping power, is easier to aim, and the situation you describe is mostly very short range.

[Hugin]

Get a 12GA pump. Devestating at any range likely in a home defense situation. Load it with #4 buckshot or large birdshot so it won't go through the your wall and into the neighbors house if you miss. And it'll cost about a half to a quarter of what an FAL, M1, AR etc will. So you can afford to buy a revolver for the nightstand too.

[Sender]

12-gauge for home defense, auto or pump. Any of the above rifles would be just dandy, whichever feels right to you and most importantly, whichever you will have plenty of ammo for. Consider a removable red-dot sight such as an Aimpoint for night use, you can't see the sights on any of them after dark.

I noticed you didn't include any Kalashnikovs on your list. Most reliable of the lot, but not quite as precise as the fine rifles you listed. Notice that all the sand-terrorists carry Kalashnikovs. This is because they continue to work, even when full of sand and neglected for decades. Something to think about.

[HEFFERNAN2]

Okay, first you need a trained personal protection/guard dog. My preference is Rottweiler: they are quiet, hardly ever bark so they are not disturbing your daily life and very loyal but you have to be "firm" not "mean" but firm with a Rott and you must be involved daily in the continuing "working" read "training" of a Rott. There can only be one Alpha in a pack. Next a pistol grip pump action 12 gauge as opposed to the "assault rifles" that rounds will go through walls and possibly hit someone in the other room. You better get some professional training and be prepared to kill someone although if you have a Rott there is a 99% chance no one will ever enter your home so you will probably never have to use it. Semper Fi, Mike

[Dan from Michigan]

Well, I have a 835 Mossberg 12 gauge. Reliable. Ammo ranges in price, but for $30, I can get a case of small birdshot ammo.

I can also get 3 1/2 inch shells of .00 buckshot with it as well.

Once I get a slug barrell, that gun can do almost anything outside of rapid fire and sniping.

[Sender]

I forgot to mention, any of the above rifles would shoot completely through several layers of sheetrock and vinyl siding, possibly through your neighbor's house. That's also a good reason for the 12-gauge at home.

[Centurion2000]

bump for later ....

[Abcdefg]

Get a 12ga. Semiautomatic.

It can be fired with one arm if you take a hit.

[Deep_6]

re:
"..they're not the friendliest people in the world.
Plus, they know my home address. Just to be on the safe
side, I'd like to purchase a rifle or a shotgun in the
next few days, but I have very little experience in
these matters..."

Rule #1:
Prejudiced paranoia is the wrong reason to purchase
your first firearm, or in making the decision
to own one.

(The decision to take a human life should not come
as easy as you seem indicate)

Two:
A nice light, 20ga shotgun will offer you all
the home protection you'll need. The noise will
scare the bejesus out of anyone and the kick won't
bowl you over. At close range, it can near cut a human
body in half. Keep that in mind.

Oh... and enroll in your local gun club. They will
be happy to assist you.

[LibKill]

20 Gauge.

Well it depends I guess. I would go 12 gauge but if Slick is built small and has little firearms experience maybe a 20 is the ticket. Certainly the recoil and noise are less and that is good for a first time shooter.