M-1 versus AR-15 versus FN-FAL versus 12-Gauge: What to buy in a time of crisis?

Classic Free Republic Threads ^ | 9-14-2001 | Flaming Vanity

[SlickWillard]

Not to be paranoid, but I have a bad feeling about this war we're entering. This summer I socialized with some Arabs, and, quite frankly, they're not the friendliest people in the world. Plus, they know my home address. Just to be on the safe side, I'd like to purchase a rifle or a shotgun in the next few days, but I have very little experience in these matters. I have long followed the FR threads on these matters (see below), and was hoping to draw on the expertise of the FR community. I am told that if I pass the phone-in test, I should be able to purchase a long gun or rifle in about 15 minutes. Would you please help me, and other Freepers like me, by offering your ideas about weapons for use in times of civil unrest? If possible:

1) Please limit your suggestions to things that the consumer has a reasonable chance to purchase in a store near his or her home. You aren't going to walk into the gun store down the street and find a $5000 fifty-caliber sniper cannon with a $1500 telescope.

2) Please limit your discussion to the practical effectiveness of the weapon, not its theoretical effectiveness. Theoretically, in close quarters, a fully automatic M-16 is superior to a semi-automatic M1, but, in practice, the consumer can only purchase a semi-automatic M-16 (AR-15). Theoretically, at 500 meters, a semi-automatic M1 is superior to a fully automatic M-16, but, in practice, unless you build your house next to the Bonneville salt flats, you'll never encounter a 500 meter line of sight.

3) Remember, the weapon has to be a long gun (rifle) that can be purchased on the spot. No handguns, or anything else that requires a waiting period. Note that this rules out the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). Also, we're talking complete, fully functioning weapons here. You don't have six weeks to assemble the weapon from the very best parts made by the very best machine shops.

4) The cost of the ammo is very nearly as important as cost of the weapon. If a round costs $5, the newbie can't afford to become familiar with the weapon.

5) The tables below don't mention shotguns, because they haven't been the subject of much discussion here at FR. A pump action shotgun is probably about the best weapon you can have in close quarters (that, or a very large, very aggressive canine). Please give any suggestions you have concerning reliable, reasonably priced pump action shotguns and their shells.

6) Much of the information in the tables that follow is probably wrong. Don't hesitate to point out any mistakes or fallacies that you spot.

7) Finally, and most sadly, the weapon is not for killing squirrels, rabbits or deer. Instead, the weapon is to be kept at your side, in case the bad guys show up at your house and present a "you or them" situation. The purpose of the weapon is to maximize the probability that it's them, not you.

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Classic Threads
AR-15 vs AR-10	Dec 16, 1999	154 Posts	264 KB
IAI Garand Rifle	Mar 5, 2001	256 Posts	450 KB
Thoughts on Springfield M1A?	Mar 28, 2001	53 Posts	98 KB
If you had to choose an "arsenal"....	Oct 17, 1999	234 Posts	449 KB
New belt-fed upper for the AR-15 and M-16	Jun 19, 2001	49 Posts	84 KB
Gun Experts, need recommendations	Jan 29, 2001	229 Posts	416 KB
(+) THE ART OF THE CACHE (+)	Mar 1, 2001	168 Posts	284 KB

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Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
M1	Springfield Fulton Arrington	highly accurate to 500m simple mechanics, less prone to jamming large rounds will pass through small trees elegant, classic weapon	rifle expensive ($1250-$3500) ammo expensive ($2.00 per round) ? problems with ammo specs ? (metric versus English) ? problems with ammo availability ? large caliber means large recoil large caliber means no target practice near civilization
Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
M-16/AR-15	Bushmaster Fulton Hesse Compass Lake Arrington Olympic Professional Ordnance	moderately priced rifle ($750-$1500) moderately priced ammo ($1.00 per round) widely available small caliber means small recoil	lots of parts, prone to jamming small caliber rounds easily diverted by leaves, blades of grass not accurate at great distance
Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
AR-10	Armalite	large caliber rounds	rifle expensive ($1200 - $2500) ammo expensive, proprietary ($4 per round) large caliber means large recoil ? mechanical stability ?
Rifle	Manufacturer	PRO's	CON's
FN-FAL	DS Arms Hesse Olympic	moderately priced rifle ($500-$1250) moderately priced ammo ($1.00 per round) large caliber indestructible	? availability in U.S. stores ? foreign design ? problems with ammo specs ? (metric versus English) large caliber means large recoil inaccurate at distance

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For Sale:

http://www.gunbroker.com
(a division of ebay)

http://www.galleryofguns.com

http://www.auctionarms.com

http://www.shotgunnews.com

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THANKS!

[SlickWillard]

Mossberg 500 Series

Mossberg 835 Series

Remington 870 Series

Wilson Combat Scatterguns

[Capitalist Eric]

7) Finally, and most sadly, the weapon is not for killing squirrels, rabbits or deer. Instead, the weapon is to be kept at your side, in case the bad guys show up at your house and present a "you or them" situation. The purpose of the weapon is to maximize the probability that it's them, not you.

For close-in work, nothing, and I mean nothing compares with a scattergun. Mossberg, with a short barrel, would be the best thing. Rifles are good at long range, but they're simply too clumsy for truly close encounters.

Nothing else comes close.

FReegards,

[Deep_6]

re:
"I have a remington 12Ga. semi-auto gas operated..
...Are you recommending AGAINST a semi-auto all
together.."

If faced with actually having to depend on
any firearm to save my life, I would prefer
NOT to depend on an automatic loading device
to set the round.

And as someone else mentioned, the mere
"chunk-chunk" of the pump action scares
even those that have never heard a pump
shotgun before. It's a very serious sound.

My wee 20ga is a single-shot, as most
"snake guns" are. Why would I need a second
round?

The author of this thread isn't serious
anyway. It's just another thread to raise
hell..

Thanks

[SlickWillard]

The author of this thread isn't serious anyway.

Actually, the author of this thread is very serious. He intends to make a purchase tomorrow and to begin target practice in the woods behind his house tomorrow afternoon.

[Deep_6]

re:
"..Earth to Deep_6: The "it" just flew two jet
airplanes into the World Trade Center.."

The Oklahoma building fell thanks to a white
Christian born Caucasian.

A white, Christian born Caucasian killed and ate
numerous men.

A white, Christian born Caucasian sliced the necks
of many woman.. While another sat atop a hospital
building sniping at innocents.. And another formed
a following that brutally murdered others to his
request...

What do you do, when "it" comes up your drive?
Or is it just foreign speaking "it's" that worry
you?

It's topics like this, that make me wonder what's
happened to this fine Nation.....

I find it saddening.


Thanks.

[Skibane]

Er... proprietary ammo for the AR-10?

$4 per round?

[Skibane]

Added to bang_list. (Click HERE to show most gun-related articles recently posted on FreeRepublic.com.)

[jra]

So you spent a significant amount of time with these people, right?

Now that someone has committed an act of terror, these same people you thought enough of to spend time with, have become evil?

You're now afraid these people who thought enough of you to spend their time with you are coming to your home to hunt you down?

You're a perfect example of why some people want to mandate waiting periods for firearm purchases.

Sounds like you need a friend, someone who will listen to you, far more than you need a gun, and I'd wager that one of your Arab 'friends' (one of the people you're talking about killing) would be happy to oblige you.

[Deep_6]

re:
"..You're a perfect example of why some people want to
mandate waiting periods for firearm purchases..."

It's amazing how many read the FR posts and repost data
from it to the usenet and other media.

It's unfortunate, but you've hit the nail on the head.
It's dialog like "SickWIllie's", that will be used in
the reasons to promote longer waiting periods and checks.

I often wonder if the democraps and libbies don't
plant these bozo topics, just to generate the
fodder they need.


Thanks.

[Havoc]

If you're prepping for home defense, that's one thing; but, if you're prepping for invasion.. Buy yourself a good 12 ga. shotgun and a decent side arm - you pick it. Doesn't have to be expensive - just has to work a hand full of times in actual use before you lift weapons and ammo from the other side for replenishment. Most groups outside the US are Not using Nato arms, they are using Russian and Chinese made SKS and AK47 for standard armament and a varienty of side arms like the Tokarov (sp).

For side arms I like the expensive (roughly $375-$500) - Walther PPK/PPKS. It's small, inexpensive to fire, easily concealed, accurate, median on recoil and comfortable to fire. You don't have to go too big - you want stopping power, not something that will go through someone and keep on Going. You want something that will put them down, not a rocket launcher that is unweildy and goes right through. A good Mossy 12 ga. and Walther would put you in under $1000 and prepare you for anything close range, though the Walther may surprise most on it's range capabilities. There are many reasons it has been a weapon of Choice in Security agencies. I've heard stories of jam rates; but, I've yet to see one actually Jam.

[Wisconsin]

A shotgun is a good choice for home defense-- along with some training.

I much prefer a double barrel shotgun. It is very reliable, let's you use two chokes/ammo choices, is shorter and thus handier, and has a very large intimidation factor. A rifle, and even more a handgun, requires a fair amount of presence of mind, coolness, and experience to use well. A shotgun works more off of easily developed instincts.

Moreover, a shotgun easily lets the first round be non-lethal (plastic beads, rock salt , etc.).

I can assure you from personal experience when I was 14 that being fired at by such a non-lethal load has huge psychological effects on the target who is unaware that the load is non-lethal.

[IRtorqued]

I leave the inclose stuff to the land mines, a varietal plethora of rifles and shotguns secure the outer perimeter.

[Jefferson Adams]

Consider a removable red-dot sight such as an Aimpoint for night use, you can't see the sights on any of them after dark.

2 words - "Trijicon sights." And yes, Martha, you can get them for AR-15s :)

[aspiring.hillbilly]

The FN FAL is best here,,,packs a 30 cal punch,,,ammo is available and relatively cheap,,,MAGs are 20 rds and available and cheap,,,rifle is reliable and stout as a tree trunk. The 223s are fine for anti-personnel, but lack penetration to disable un-armoured vehicles. Shotguns cant reach out like rifles. Also get a good sidearm for close in emergencies.

[CWRWinger]

IMO, Use No. 4 buck in the 21 Ga. At 50 feet, the effect to a threat would be the same as being hit by five .32 caliber bullets simultaneously.

[Captiva]

Keep it simple & cheap ($225-325) Ammo available everywhere.

A Winchester Model 94 in 30-30 or a Marlin 336 in same caliber.

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/md94/md94.htm

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/leverAction_centerfire/336A.htm

Good Luck.

[SlickWillard]

So you spent a significant amount of time with these people, right?

Now that someone has committed an act of terror, these same people you thought enough of to spend time with, have become evil?

You're now afraid these people who thought enough of you to spend their time with you are coming to your home to hunt you down?

You're a perfect example of why some people want to mandate waiting periods for firearm purchases.

Sounds like you need a friend, someone who will listen to you, far more than you need a gun, and I'd wager that one of your Arab 'friends' (one of the people you're talking about killing) would be happy to oblige you.

Frankly, I'm getting a little sick and tired of this crap. The other night, I spent six hours at dinner listening to non-citizen muslim arabs talk about how much they hate America, how much they hate "Anglo-Saxon individuality," how much they want to move home before it's time for their oldest child to start first grade, & cetera ad nauseum. I just sat there and smiled, and told them how welcome they are in this country, and how much we wished they would stay.

Tuesday afternoon, after the attacks, I drove an hour and a half, to the home of one of the arab women who had been at dinner, with a gorgeous bouquet of flowers, in what I hoped to be a gesture of good will and solidarity. She opened the door, screamed at me, told me to leave, and when I bent down to try to place the bouquet at her doorstep, she screamed at me again to take my flowers with me.

YOU AND Deep_6 CAN GO STRAIGHT TO HELL.

[Don Myers]

bttt

[Don Myers]

Recommend a Remington 870 Magnum 12 gauge riot shotgun with an extended magazine. Go for the 18 inch barrel. Load it with double OO buckshot and sleep easy.