Posted on 09/22/2001 6:04:00 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
BTW, a pilgrimage to Medjugorie was encouraged by the Pope. He has been there on more than one occasion. Bosnia isn't exactly a tourist haven either. :)
No. Now you're putting words into my mouth. That isn't fair or intellectualy rigorous. I was refering to some idiosyncratic practices of the transalpine and transpyrenean church.
But seriously, would you expect any American order to establish a church in which the skulls of their monks can be visited as they line the walls of a series of chapels in downtown Rome. Yes I was there. Stefano Gobbi is another name that comes to mind. The umpteen "weeping statues" are another national idiosyncrasy. The priest who was most emphatic in his anger toward these practices, which have little to do with the new testament per se, was an Italian born and bred by the way. If I recall correctly from Firenze. His words: "I wished they'd put living the gospels above chasing rituals and miracles."
Camille Paglia has much the same to say. For her, of impeccable Italo-catholic origins, her tradition is an amalgam of the austere Judeo-Christianity and the original vificant Mediteranean culture that still permeates Italy with ur-drives that are profoundly pagan. Sexual Personae might be a great book to illustrate the point I was trying to make.
My cat just turned me into a newt.
And I like Camille okay, but she is wrong about the issue regarding paganism. We replaced pagan holidays with holy days or saints feasts days to celebrate truth triumphing over falsehood. What comes to my mind for an example is the image of "Our Lady of Guadalupe."
When Mary appeared to Juan Diego, the same type of thing occured. Namely, the acceleration of the indigenous people throughout mexico. Six years after her appearance, 9 million aztec people had been baptized. Have you ever seen the tilma on which Our Lady is imprinted?
Her mantle has stars, gold sun rays, the moon and an angel. Each relates directly to some aspect of Aztec divinity. For example, the rays of the sun express the presence of the sun god qeutzacoatl. And that She is standing on the moon reminds the Nahuatl [aztecs] of the god of night. She is also being carried by an angel which further relates her to aztec divinity, since royalty and representatives of deities were carried by others.
I could go on about the artistic and technical explanations, but my point is that the symbolism spoke to the nahuatl of the 16th century. So did the events which surrounded the conversion of Pagans.
An obvious improvement.
I don't think the grace is because of the apparitions. Last I heard the Church has not declared them worthy of belief. (I don't believe them.) The grace comes from attending the sacraments, Mass, Eucharist and Reconciliation once you get there.
I don't know if this miracle has been declared worthy or if it is just a pious superstition. But if it has been verified as a true miracle, it is still a peripheral matter. It is pretty far down on the list of priorities. We should not need miracles. At Vatican II a hierarchy was set down and the three main things that the Catholic Church is about are the Bible, Eucharist and Prayer. Anyway my understanding of how we are to view things like this is that you can believe it if you want to but don't fixate on it. If you don't believe it that's okay, but DON'T make fun of it.
One requirement for sainthood is that miracles occur because of the saint. It could be that this is a miracle, that amoung other requirements, led to the canonization of this particular saint.
patent
On the Society's federal tax return as a tax-exempt organization, Louis Zacchia from Ida's crew was listed as "treasurer/director when necessary"; he was also identified as vice-president of the Society. His offices are sufficient to make the Society chargeable with his knowledge that cash revenue from the vendors was being diverted from the Society.
Further evidence was supplied by the testimony of D'Arco. He was asked whether he had learned that "organized crime controlled the Feast of San Gennaro." He replied that he had and that what he had learned was this: "They controlled the curb space and they ran the Feast. They had an association that was housed in a store, a store front, with the saint in it on Mulberry Street." He added: "The curb space along the whole length of Mulberry Street was rented. They rented it for stands and they collected money on that." D'Arco's testimony pointed directly to the Society of Saint Gennaro of Naples and the Suburbs as the association housed on Mulberry Street.
D'Arco then named individual members of the Genovese Family who had in turn "controlled" the Feast since the 1960s. He stated: "From 1988, when I became the captain, from that point forward, Jimmy Ida had control of that." When asked how he knew, he replied: "By talking with Jimmy and also with disputes that I had between Jimmy and Mickey Dimino [Michael Generoso] over our bread interests in the Feast."
Let's me give you an additional piece of info about Italy -- it's the fourth most industrialized nation in the world in terms of GNP. Don't go into a temper tantrum now, you hear?
Actually it's neither obvious nor factual. I have great admiration for a lot of Italian history, and my Italian was once good enough to read signore Levi in the original. But, like every country, Italy has its quirks, which include a very earthly Catholicism, and very strong anti-clericalism. Highlighting this idiosyncrasy is neither anti-Italian nor wrong.
Ciao.
Oh well, superstition reigns. Recent events testify to the results.Are you comparing Catholics to terrorists who flew airplanes into the WTC?
patent +AMDG
I doubt VERY seriously that this is part of the "Catholic faith" any more than Green Jello is a part of "Mormonism."You have a number of Catholics telling you it is a part of their faith. You should perhaps consider that they are being honest when they say that.
The great majority of Roman Catholics feel VERY uncomfortable with this sort of mumbo-jumbo,You’ve taken a poll? Are you an expert on Catholicism?
which is really more akin to Santeria or Voudoun than Christianity.Illbay, the above are offensive, plain and simple. If any of us called some LDS belief “mumbo-jumbo”, akin to Santeria or “Voudoun”, “Chicanery”, etc., you would be offended. Knock this off, you may not like the belief, but this event has been around longer then your church has. Address it without the insults, please.Miracles, yes. Chicanery, no.
I always check with Madame Cleo beforehand. She knows if it's gonna liquefy or not, and even at her rates it saves me the cost of the ticket.
patent +AMDG
Either he is a liar extraordinaire, who trashed his business to pump out some extremely coherent falsehoods, or the apparitions are a fraud from a to z, which have even contributed to ethnic cleansing.
BTW not only did JP 2 refuse to go to that spot, but while in Croatia, made a point of praising a real (his words, not mine) site of Marian apparitions.
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