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China's foreign policy finally comes of age
scmp ^ | October 19 | ZHANG TIANGUANG

Posted on 10/18/2001 10:02:07 PM PDT by super175

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Comment #81 Removed by Moderator

To: Lake
define 'capital'.

The most basic form of capital is what you mentioned in post #76

82 posted on 10/21/2001 7:28:21 AM PDT by super175
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To: Black Jade
Re:#78

You are being ignorant to reality.

Sun's revolutionary ideas were not only about those things, but they were about not immediately having those things.

The feudal Chinese culture required a great deal of time and effort to change. The 'democratic' movement in China was not a popular revolution, as in everyone on the street being able to comprehend everything about democracy and fighting for that.

Sun wanted to revolutionize Chinese culture, away from feudalism, which would take time, and for a while a dictatorship.

This was reality. 'We have a lock on power until the new though (new Chinese thought) catches on...'.

He not only had a revolution against the feudal lords, but also against the negative aspects of feudal Chinese culture. (such as foot binding, etc)

He wanted to educate the entire masses because democracy without education does not work.

You are saying that 'they were all dictators' as in all dictators are the same. You are being ignorant.

Sun recognized (and so did Chiang) that there had to be a transition period specifically tailored for China in the move towards democracy. How else would you westernize (to some extent) the uneducated masses who would not understand the concept of voting...ever?

83 posted on 10/21/2001 7:39:56 AM PDT by super175
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To: super175
>>The most basic form of capital is what you mentioned in post #76

No. According to Marxism, the basic elements of production are capital and labor (physical and/or mental). Capital is the physical resources or materials that can be used to generate revenues. Things related to human brains are labor, such as knowledge, profession nad skill. Marx believed men should not buy or sell labor because it insults the dignity of human beings and deprives them of the right to fully contribute their labor to the society. There are many examples in which people have to give up their favorite professions to find jobs they don't like in order to put food on the table. Marx thought it was humiliation.

84 posted on 10/21/2001 7:48:31 AM PDT by Lake
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To: Lake; Black Jade
Did Dr. Sun and Chiang Kai Shek believe in commerce?
85 posted on 10/21/2001 9:57:24 AM PDT by super175
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To: Lake
According to Marxism...

I am not talking about 'according to marxism'. I am talking about sheer Americanism. "Capital" does not have to be physical goods. It can consist of conceptual items or things such as professional skills or labor.

If I am a painter, the skill of painting is my capital, on which I can employ that capital to benefit myself and gain other forms of 'capital' such as a home, money, land, or whatever...

"Capital" in the American sense of the word can mean physical and non physical things. Capital is the physical resources or materials that can be used to generate revenues.

In the American sense of the word, capital does not have to be some tangible asset, like a factory, or tools. Marx believed men should not buy or sell labor because it insults the dignity of human beings and deprives them of the right to fully contribute their labor to the society.

Marx was an idiot.

There are many examples in which people have to give up their favorite professions to find jobs they don't like in order to put food on the table. Marx thought it was humiliation.

Marx was also an arrogant idiot.

The market demands what the market demands. If the market has 10,000 painters and no carpenters, where are you going to sleep?

There are such things as physical capital, and there are such things as human capital.

86 posted on 10/21/2001 10:05:38 AM PDT by super175
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To: Lake
There are such things as physical capital, and there are such things as human capital.

And on top of that, every man is responsible for himself, and his own freedom of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Every man for himself.

87 posted on 10/21/2001 10:09:13 AM PDT by super175
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To: Lake
Individual responsiblity (and hard work) makes the society greatly more efficient, and thus, this is why America is rich.
88 posted on 10/21/2001 10:10:28 AM PDT by super175
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To: LSJohn
bump this thread...
89 posted on 10/21/2001 10:24:11 AM PDT by super175
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To: Lake
There are many examples in which people have to give up their favorite professions to find jobs they don't like in order to put food on the table. Marx thought it was humiliation.

In communist society, you had very little choice as to which professions you got into. Whatever the government felt you were good at is what you did. Like it or not...

90 posted on 10/21/2001 10:27:10 AM PDT by super175
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To: super175
>>Marx was an idiot.

You asked me to explain Marxism and I did so. I didn't make any comments.

91 posted on 10/21/2001 10:31:41 AM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>In communist society, you had very little choice as to which professions you got into.

So, that's not the communism Marx suggested. Marx wanted freedom. If you know anything about Paris Commune, you can find out what Marx's dream was.

92 posted on 10/21/2001 10:35:16 AM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>Individual responsiblity (and hard work) makes the society greatly more efficient

Marx thought the individual resposibility should come from self-motivation, not from the fear of hunger or unemployment.

93 posted on 10/21/2001 10:37:43 AM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>The market demands what the market demands.

Marx didn't think free competition in capitalism was efficient. Instead the competition caused waste of resources and would end up with monopoly.

94 posted on 10/21/2001 10:41:14 AM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
"Han" is about like saying "American Indian".

IMO "Han" is about like saying "white". Germans are white and so are the British, but they are not 100% the same.


When looking at China IMO, it is best to look at it as a mega state like the European Union. "Han" is not like saying American Indian and neither are racial comparisons the best way to look at this picture. If there was a comparison for the Han Chinese in the west it would be like calling someone who lives in Europe (French, German, Swed, etc.) a European and imagine Europe as one country with a central government. (ie. the European Union)

Though their cultures are similar to a degree, Han people speak a variety of different languages that are totally unintelligible from one another. These languages vary depending on what region one is from. The only similarity in language between these so-called dialects is the common writing system.

Since 1949 and educational reforms more Han are able to speak putonghua (the "common language" or Mandarin) than ever before. This does make the "Han" appear to be a more monolithic but still they have regional differences that are just as significantly real as the differences that occur within Europe. As for the minority nationalities, they can be more easily compared to the American Indians.

The Han do have the advantage of sheer numbers. More and more Han are moving into areas that have been traditionally minority areas. Is this a systematic effort to eliminate the minorities and potential problems in the future or a natural phenomenon of a growing Han population? Probably a little of both. This however, has been occuring long before the communist came to power. The Mongols even complained about this during the Qing dynasty. Today, the Mongols from "Outer Mongolia" rarely if ever recognized their their sinicized Inner Mongolia brothers to the south as being true Mongolians. Most Mongols in China today have fully assimilated into Chinese/Han society.
95 posted on 10/21/2001 11:29:43 AM PDT by Robert Lomax
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To: Robert Lomax; Lake
Good post. Bump.

The only similarity in language between these so-called dialects is the common writing system.

The common writing system was imposed by Emperor Qin. Before him, there were many different writing systems. Some of those old writing systems still exist in small numbers today. I watched a TV program the other day about 'nu-shu'. It is a completely differenct writing system that exists (or existed) in China...

There are many forms of Chinese writing including different forms of calligraphy.

Jia Gu Wen (the writing on the turtle shells) is the oldest so far...

There is also Zhuan Shu--which refers to those characters that are of curved flowing lines.

The invention of paper made other forms of calligraphy come up too. There is 5 basic categories: 1. Zhuan Shu (see above). 2. Li Shu 3. Kai Shu 4. Xing Shu 5. Cao Shu.

Kai Shu is printed form of characters. Xing and Cao Shu are forms of Chinese cursive writing.

Since 1949 and educational reforms more Han are able to speak putonghua (the "common language" or Mandarin) than ever before.

This began long before 1949, maybe even 50 years before. I can't give a specific date though.

The old language is refered to as Wen Yan Wen, and the new language is refered to as Bai Hua Wen.

Those reforms began to take place around the turn of the century, give or take a few years... It was at least 30 or 40 years before 1949, and before the CCP was even formed. What the CCP called 'putong hua' is referred to as 'guo-yu' on Taiwan.

Wen Yan Wen is an old form of Chinese written grammar. In English terms it would be about like writing in old biblical English. Speaking grammar and written grammar were different before those reforms were undertaken.

Also Wen Yan Wen was largely written in columns going from the right of the page to the left, to be read up to down. It was that way because scrolls were the common writing material (then consider everyone writes with their right hand).

The reforms around the turn of the century westernized some of the Chinese language. It was written side to side, and read just like English. Also Bai Hua Wen was introduced. Basically Bai Hua Wen consolidated written Chinese grammar with spoken Chinese grammar. (of course they are not exactly the same, but much more than with the old way).

The CCP simplified characters from fanti to jianti. That was done for several reasons, part of them political and 'revolutionary' and part of them 'to promote literacy'.

In language circles the oversimplification of characters is widely critcized because it destroyed many of the culturally significant things attached to Chinese writing.

96 posted on 10/21/2001 11:59:16 AM PDT by super175
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To: super175
>>There is 5 basic categories: 1. Zhuan Shu (see above). 2. Li Shu 3. Kai Shu 4. Xing Shu 5. Cao Shu.

Add one more: Li Shu, which was used in legal documents by the court. Li means "slave".

97 posted on 10/21/2001 12:15:55 PM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>This began long before 1949, maybe even 50 years before. I can't give a specific date though.

It was based on the language Machus spoke in the empiral court and used to be called "Jing Qiang" (Beijing Tone).

98 posted on 10/21/2001 12:19:31 PM PDT by Lake
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To: super175
>>In language circles the oversimplification of characters is widely critcized because it destroyed many of the culturally significant things attached to Chinese writing.

Simplified characters are good for hand-writing and don't neccessarily lose the cultural meanings in them. The mainlanders who learn simplified characters have no difficulty in reading Fan Ti. However, Taiwanese who only learn Fan Ti will have hard time in reading Jian Ti.

99 posted on 10/21/2001 12:27:56 PM PDT by Lake
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To: Lake
Re:#97

Add Li Shu???

Read again... it is my #2...

100 posted on 10/21/2001 3:15:56 PM PDT by super175
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