Posted on 10/18/2001 10:02:07 PM PDT by super175
The shift from wen yan wen to bai hua wen is what I was referring too...(post #98)
Simplified characters are good for hand-writing and don't neccessarily lose the cultural meanings in them.
They are easier for handwriting because they have less strokes. As far as losing cultural meaning, you can't pull that wool over my eyes...
The mainlanders who learn simplified characters have no difficulty in reading Fan Ti.
The mainlanders who study fanti have less problems reading fanti compared to other mainlanders who don't study fanti...
Most of the Mainlanders I have ever met can barely fumble their way through a Taiwan or Hong Kong newspaper...of course there are those who have studied, or who have been overseas a long time and have gotten used to the traditional characters...
There is always exceptions...
However, Taiwanese who only learn Fan Ti will have hard time in reading Jian Ti.
Most Taiwanese could care less about reading jian-ti. Its not like they get their news from Xinhua or anything. A Taiwanese (or Hong Kong person) can pick up reading jian-ti fairly quickly when put in the right situation. Most have their own version of written shorthand in Taiwan already.
As far as writing in strictly jian-ti many think it is insulting to do such a thing.
Outside of Mainland China FanTi is the standard, and in some places they simply learn both from the start. In most places you can barely find a jian-ti newspaper unless you subscribe to it and have it sent to your home, or go to some newsstand looking for that in specific.
Most mainland people who live overseas can read both, but write their handwriting in jian-ti.
Sorry, I thought it was Liu Shu.
>>Most of the Mainlanders I have ever met can barely fumble their way through a Taiwan or Hong Kong newspaper
Maybe you have to meet more people. Let's take the website as an example. The mainlanders can read the contents on the websites of Taiwan or Hongkong. But it is rare for Taiwanese to be able to read the websites of the mainland without code-conversion.
>>As far as writing in strictly jian-ti many think it is insulting to do such a thing.
Well, maybe some will think so. You always have old people who like the good old days.
>>Outside of Mainland China FanTi is the standard
Wrong. Jian Ti is standard, official Chinese characters used in all international organizations, including the UN. All official and legal documents have to be prepared in Jiang Ti. Singapore also uses Jian Ti.
I don't think people mean PRC. People mean a place called China. 30 years ago people say China they meant a place. They refered ROC as the goverment of China. Today people refer PRC as the goverment of China.
Known as the Five-Color Flag, its stripes stood for China proper (red), Manchuria (yellow), Mongolia (blue), Tibet (white) and the Muslims of China (black).
I read an article about this flag somewhere pointing out that all the colors on the flag were of equal size.
The Qing rulers were the racists. They were not Han and they would discriminate a great deal.
Those things that the rulers (viewed as non Chinese) imposed upon the people by a racial group that represented at most, 2% of the population were resented.
Dr. Sun at the very least envisioned a democracy with equal representation of ethnic groups.
The American Revolution did not start out with 50 states. It was people fighting for their rights against monopolistic dictators.
You just showed your ignorrance.
In Chinese culture there is no "human rights" term but it is common sense.
Define racist please. In Chinese there is no such term as "racist" or "gretaer-Han-ist". It is human nature that we discriminate and self-centered. That is why 2500 hundred years ago Chinese ancient intellecture defined "equality, harmony and justice for all" as the ideal world.
In order to understand Sun's philosophy you need to understand "Da Dao" and "Da Tung". Of course, study his books.
BTW, study Sun's WILL which is very short.
It is not common sense at all. Show me some ancient Chiense works in which there is a sense of human rights.
>>Define racist please.
I think a racist is a person who disciminates people only on a racial basis.
>>That is why 2500 hundred years ago Chinese ancient intellecture defined "equality, harmony and justice for all" as the ideal world.
That's not true. The Chinese feudal culture classified people into different classes and used insulting words, like Yi or Man, to name people of other minority nationalities and foreigners. Anything that was not from the middle kingdom was barbaric.
>>In order to understand Sun's philosophy you need to understand "Da Dao" and "Da Tung". Of course, study his books.
Sun's words can have different interpretations. Da Tung can mean communism, equality, or other things, depending on what you want.
There are over 50 nationalities in China. Sun picked up big five in order to get support from those ethinic groups.
This is exactly what I said, people discriminate by nature.
3000 years ago in China, actually just a little part of today's China, the King's (emperor) position was voluntarily yielded to a talented and virtuous person. (Dr. Sun yielded his presidency voluntarily)
In China it did not classify people into different classes. Yuan and Chin did classified a little bit but they were not Han. They were minority and it was the only way to secure their position. But you can always have a revolution to destroy the old system.
'discriminatation' is a rather new world term. Can you define discriminatation please. According to Webster: discriminate - detect or draw distinctions, distinguish from or between.
We do this everyday. That is why in Chinese culture "discrimination" is used as a very broad term. 'Shi' - intellecture supposed to teach people not to discriminate, not just based on races, should not based on anything. But one has to draw very clear distinctions between differences. Like 'male' and 'female', 'human' and animal', 'bad' and 'eveil'.
Yi and man are used broadly, not just toward the people outside of the 'center kindom'. It is used toward anybody who is not well educated.
Southern provinces of China are 'man yi'. They are Han people. For foreigner it is refered as 'Fan'. It was also discussed before.
BTW, I'll find the text for you but I probably will not be able to translate it into English.
This is a very heavy subject. You really have to understand Chinese characters and philosophy to appreciate those great inventions. Every characters are tested for more than 2000 years. Jien Ti destroied the meaning totally. Jien Ti exists a long long time but those are NOT for official usage.
Today's CCP's Jien Ti is ridiculous. Use a Chinese term "Bu Den Da Ya Zhi Tong". For instance: travel (lu you) CCP changed (you) to 'swim', or by water. 300 hundred years from now people will think in China people had to travel by water. There are so many ridiculous examples that I feel sorry for China.
A language system has existed for 3000 years and can be improved by a bunch of ignorant soliders? Give me a break! Well it shows how CCP are and what they are doing to their most precious treasure.
Go visit 'zhongwen.com" to understand how wonderful those ancient people invented Chinese characters.
BTW, all of those terms invented by CCP are so childish and ignorant, Chinese ancentors would be shamed!
No, Sun didn't give up power voluntarily. He did so because he didn't have the support from the military. He then tried many times to overthrow the central government (ROC in Beijing).
>>Every characters are tested for more than 2000 years.
The traditional Chinese characters remained unchanged for 2,000 years not bacause of their efficiency in communications but because of the long history of Chinese feualism which resisted any change in the society. As part of the culture, the characters have their value, but as a tool they need to be updated.
>>A language system has existed for 3000 years and can be improved by a bunch of ignorant soliders?
Simplifying characters started right after Qing dynasty was overthrown and Chinese intellectuals tried to westernize the society through "new culture movement". They talked about completely replacing Chinese characters with PinYin. The CCP didn't start the job but realize it.
>>all of those terms invented by CCP are so childish and ignorant,
How about PinYin?
>>Chinese ancentors would be shamed!
Yeah, they wouldn't have been happy if they had seen you are using a computer. You live for the future, not for the past.
Yale & Wade Pin-Yin systems are invented by westerners, not a bunch of ignorant CCP soliders.
Since Pin-Yin was invented, CCP has to print Chinese from Left to Right and no more from top to bottom or right to left. With Tsu-Yin, it does not matter how you arrange the characters.
You are not just ignorant, you are also twisting the truth and history.
BTW, computer age helps Fan Ti Chinese characters more than Jien Ti and helps Tsu-Yin more than Pin-Yin. It also takes no time to translate from Fan Ti to Jien Ti and vice versa. It is just the internal double byte code translation.
I'm calling it off of our discussion. Have a nice day!
Just like every other dynasty...
Actually the American revolution was different from either the 1911 or 1949 revolutions in China. In both Chinese revolutions, a party dictatorship was established.
In a way, yes, but in Sun's case that was part of the plan. His plan for implementing democracy was that it would take years.
China and America found themselves in different circumstances.
Sun's revolution was not only about politics. He had a revolution against feudal culture, and knew there would be many who were uneducated in anything other than feudalism, and would hence reject the reforms. You could say they were 'loyalists' to the old ways.
You are looking at the extreme short term, not the long. You are saying "because he had a revolution that uprooted millions of people and took aims at many old traditions that would be hard to challenge (not to mention in a country that fragmented into warlord status), nor the fact that Sun never took China, he just brought down the Qing, but despite this, because he did not call a general election during the middle of a free for all civil war, he was not pro democracy".
Sun never took over China. He did not have peace long enough to do anything. What about Yuan Shi Kai?
You are thinking that Sun just took it all and ruled in bliss in just days after the WuChang Uprising...
Anyhow, Sun knew about the difficulties during the transition phase. He had other aims though, otherwise what he did was create a new dynasty. That is not the case at all.
Sun was just one player in a big game...
2. Make sure there are not other revolutions (like the communist revolution) against our reforms.
3. Take over China from all the warlords.
4. Down the road once everything calms down, we establish a strong democracy, because heaven knows, we can't do it in a free for all war zone.
Sun and also the KMT barely got through with #1, and almost finished off the CCP (#2), but not quite. #3 was half accomplished also.
Just like any other cultures and countries in the world. It is the human nature.
Will US adapt any other culture and values other than England as the main stream system? NO!
Majority rules and that is the way any where around the world.
The first couple Chin's emporers were strictly following Han's values and culture. They knew they had to be like Han in order to survive and rule the country.
An old Chinese teaching "ruh jin wen su" = "In Rome do as the Romans do"
Dr. Sun led a revolution against feudalism. In specific against feudal rule and cultural practices. (such as foot binding, kowtows, etc).
Mao though thought that if a little bit is good then a whole lot is even better.
He took Sun's football and ran with it. Anyone or anything labeled 'feudal' better batten down the hatches.
Dr Sun had the end goal in mind of maintaining Chinese heritage, but eliminating those bad parts of the culture. He wanted to (to some extent) westernize China, but maintain Chinese characteristics. He wanted to replace feudalism. It was a 'just enough' attitude. Mao on the other hand was a bona fide radical. He had no real end goal in mind, other than 'to get rid of feudalism'. Anything and anyone who got labeled was stuck.
If you do not have feudal rule, then what kind of rule are you going to have? There must be some type of rule no matter what. Sun wanted to replace feudal superstitious rule with democracy, complete with voting and everything. Of course it would have Chinese characteristics.
Like I said though, it was going to take time. Rome was not built in a day.
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