SAP chooses Sun Micro software over Microsoft-FT (Java wins one over .NET)

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[Dominic Harr]

Monday October 29, 8:44 pm Eastern Time

SAP chooses Sun Micro software over Microsoft-FT

LONDON, Oct 30 (Reuters) - SAP , Europe's biggest software group, has decided not to use Microsoft's(NasdaqNM:MSFT - news) .Net software and is instead backing a competing offering from Sun Microsystems (NasdaqNM:SUNW - news), the Financial Times reported on Tuesday.

SAP chief executive Hasso Plattner will announce next week the German group is to adopt Sun's J2EE architecture, a development platform for enterprise software based on the Java programming language, to run SAP software, people close to the talks told the newspaper.

SAP's move, if confirmed, is likely to be a blow to Microsoft, as the German group has one of the largest customer bases of any business software developer.

[Liberal Classic]

This is one of their new lower-end servers, in the same vein as the 250 and 450. They are significanly less expensive than the 4000, 5000, and 6000 series servers, which go from 16 to 32 CPUs. However, you are right in that we are not talking about chump change for the minimum configuration. In the 880, the entry level machine is two CPUs and 4GB RAM. The good news is that RAM is cheap these days.

HP and IBM all have respectable unix offerings in similar class machines. For any of these manufacturers we're talking about $15,000 to $20,000 to start with. That may seem like an astronomical amount of money, but remember that we are talking about 8-way machines that can drive a quarter to a half of a terabyte of storage, if you cough up money for disks.

I work in the midrange world. I once bragged about a half a terabyte to some mainframer and he laughed at me. :)

Speaking generally, here. I've said before, I am not a computer bigot. I have Windows at home, and I have Windows at work. It's a great desktop OS that enjoys widespread popularity. But there is a larger world out there, and once you've seen it you'll realize that Microsoft is not the end all and be all of computers.

[GeekDejure]

Ach Tung !!! Hitlery wins again !!!

[eno_]

Well ya see, that's the thing. Pick a platform, and pick the easiest and cheapest tools for that platform. Right now the only two choices for easy and cheap are Microsoft and free software like Linux. Mainframes are hideously expensive, and Solaris/Oracle/SAP is only slightly less hideously expensive. All this cusomized glue, just for a mail server (ya, ya, I know "groupware" - it's for the birds) is crazy. What makes Microsoft a winner is they sell stuff 80% of customers can use just by turning the knobs on the controls themselves. Free software has its own attractions Microsoft can't touch, but for a different kind of customer.

[constable tom]

I always thought that Java was the answer to the Microsoft hegemony, and that Linux would take off as an alternative desktop OS once Java apps proliferated. But that hasn't come to pass. Anyone have any comments?

On desktops, Windows is still undisputed King and probably will continue to be for a while. On servers, J2EE is head and shoulders above the Windows platform. So M$FT will continue to dominate desktops (the Wintel platform) but Sun's J2EE is the de facto server platform for large-scale business apps. Linux to date has been more successful cannabalizing Unix (and sometimes Windows) on the server for non-mission critical apps, especially as a platform for dedicated web (HTTP) servers (i.e., Apache).

[Bush2000]

The truly amusing thing is that, with Sun cutting nearly 9% of its workforce, it will be lucky to continue driving efforts which bring in little or no revenue ... such as Java.

[Bush2000]

Even Microsoft uses Java for their distributed web offerings. Go to The Microsoft Gaming Zone and play hearts, spades, chess, etc. All Java applets.

But aren't those applets evil since they were produced with Microsoft J++?

[Dominic Harr]

And the MS people don't think this means something?

Just ask Bush2000 his opinion. I'm sure he'll explain himself better than I can.

Didn't have a problem. Java games just won the "Detroit Mom" award. I sincerely hope your java work continues becauses java sure is looking good.

Thank you for actually checking them out. That's the point -- online games that don't crash, work on any machine and never lose a connection.

All I ask is that people evaluate for themselves.

You'll start to see more and more of this for consumer use, as time goes on. The really *good* stuff requires some sort of 'broadband' high-speed access, so the powerful commercial applications will have to wait until enough people have high speed access. But that will come . . .

[Dominic Harr]

The truly amusing thing is that, with Sun cutting nearly 9% of its workforce, it will be lucky to continue driving efforts which bring in little or no revenue ... such as Java.

Actually, it's Sun, IBM and HP driving Java. Sun is just one of the 'big 3'. And besides, Java has taken root, and doesn't really even need the 'big backers' anymore.

But aren't those applets evil since they were produced with Microsoft J++?

First, those applets were outsourced, written by other companies -- not by Microsoft. So we don't know *what* IDE they used.

Second, Visual J++ is just an IDE. Nothing wrong with it. I used it for years. It still writes Java. Why should the IDE matter? I find that VisualCafe is a better IDE, because it has better support for servlets and other Java2 stuff -- which VisualJ++ has completely ignored.

[oc-flyfish]

I am glad this discussion hasn't erupted into MS/Linux/Java wars. I am a MSCE but have little experience on the development end (Visual Basic, Visual Interdev, and some Cobol). For what it's worth I think your Java arguement has some merits. I do agree that a MS platform is MUCH cheaper to implement and VB programmers are pretty easy to come by.

Whenever I think of SAP I remember Hersey's implementation that screwed up their Halloween rush 2-3 years ago.

[Bush2000]

Actually, it's Sun, IBM and HP driving Java. Sun is just one of the 'big 3'. And besides, Java has taken root, and doesn't really even need the 'big backers' anymore.

Sun alone sets Java standards, not IBM and HP. And with little or no revenue coming in to offset that business cost, it will only get harder for Sun to continue promoting Java.

First, those applets were outsourced, written by other companies -- not by Microsoft. So we don't know *what* IDE they used.

Huh? We know no such thing. Do you have proof that the applets were outsourced?

Second, Visual J++ is just an IDE. Nothing wrong with it. I used it for years. It still writes Java. Why should the IDE matter?

Yeah, and it also allowed you to write applets that use Windows-specific extensions. Nothing wrong with that at all in my book, either.

[Dominic Harr]

I am glad this discussion hasn't erupted into MS/Linux/Java wars.

Me, too.

I really enjoy discussing this. I think we can all learn from each other, really.

And 'cross-platform' computing is coming to consumers, I think. Sooner or later.

Hopefully sooner!

[Dominic Harr]

Sun alone sets Java standards, not IBM and HP.

Actually, that is incorrect.

The 'Java Community Process' sets the standards. Sun has about 40% control. IBM, HP, and about a thousand other companies (literally) all belong.

Huh? We know no such thing. Do you have proof that the applets were outsourced?

Well, yes, actually -- look at the HTML that calls the applets, for one thing. Also, I know people from one of the companies, the one that created the game 'Bejeweled' for the Microsoft Zone.

Microsoft doesn't *do* Java development at all, do they? Do you have any reason to believe that they do?

Yeah, and it also allowed you to write applets that use Windows-specific extensions. Nothing wrong with that at all in my book, either.

Ah, that 'cross-platform' thing you don't think is important. You should elaborate on the Microsoft position on 'platform-independent' computing.

Many of us think that perverting Java to be 'Windows-specific' is a *bad* thing. Do you at least understand *why* we feel that way?

[Bush2000]

Whenever I think of SAP I remember Hersey's implementation that screwed up their Halloween rush 2-3 years ago.

For those who lack a historical perspective on the Hershey SAP f-up.

But no one is taking responsibility. Kevin McKay, chief executive officer and president of SAP's U.S. unit, says the system itself isn't at fault. "If it was a system issue, I'd point directly to a system issue," he says.

Siebel executives say that Hershey officials told them the problem wasn't with their software. "It may have turned out with the big bang kind of installation, they were maxed out there," says Paul Wahl, Siebel's president.

One or both of them wasn't telling the truth: Either SAP wasn't up to the challenge or Hershey screwed up the implementation. In any case, nobody is talking.

Frankly, SAP made a mistake. .NET is going to clean J2EE's clock. See for yourself: http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/compare/default.asp

[Bush2000]

The 'Java Community Process' sets the standards. Sun has about 40% control. IBM, HP, and about a thousand other companies (literally) all belong.

Right, Dominic. They have so much control over Java that they still pay license fees to Sun. LOL. Just let 'em try to add something to Java without Sun's approval. Ain't gonna happen.

Well, yes, actually -- look at the HTML that calls the applets, for one thing.

HTML ain't Java.

Also, I know people from one of the companies, the one that created the game 'Bejeweled' for the Microsoft Zone.

You claim to know people from the companies that produced the applets -- and yet you don't know whether they used J++ or not. Just like most of your "knowledge", that doesn't amount to squat.

Microsoft doesn't *do* Java development at all, do they? Do you have any reason to believe that they do?

Yes, they do. But who really gives a crap about Java? It's just one language among many: http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jump/

For those who don't understand the differences between .NET and J2EE, here's a reasonably coherent article: http://java.oreilly.com/news/farley_0800.html

[Bush2000]

Many of us think that perverting Java to be 'Windows-specific' is a *bad* thing. Do you at least understand *why* we feel that way?

Sure, I understand it. But cross platform generally isn't a big issue since most corporations standardize and build on top of a particular architecture (ie. *nix, Windows, Mac) and, once they're there, the costs become too exorbitant for them to switch. Moving from one brand of *nix to another isn't a big deal. Moving from *nix to Windows or vice-versa IS a big deal; hence, most corps don't even bother. Bottom line: The cross-platform mantra that you and Sun are always selling isn't a big lure. It's a nice-to-have. But it's hardly essential.

[Dominic Harr]

For those who don't understand the differences between .NET and J2EE, here's a reasonably coherent article:

That is an *excellent* article, I suggest everyone read it.

And it points out the theme we've been discussing here.

Java offers a single language to use on many computer platforms.

Microsoft's .NET aims for a single computer platform (Window, of course) that can run many computer languages.

My basic contention here is that 'one language, many platforms' is a far better choice for the market.

Companies can keep just one set of programmers and make products for a wide variety of platforms. Consumers get real OS choice, because the programs they own won't be useless if they change OS's.

So 'Java' is good for developers and consumers. .NET is good for Microsoft.

[jejones]

<blonde>Well, a cross-platform program is one that works on Windows 9x, Windows ME, Windows NT, Windows 2K, and Windows XP, right?</blonde>

I think I just made myself sick.