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To: AnalogReigns
Baptists are not protestants, they existed before the Protestant reformation
21 posted on 10/31/2001 10:06:33 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: RaceBannon
I read your link. Unless you want to call all persons or (small) groups who dissented from Roman doctrine in any of myriad ways, "Baptist," there is no unbroken link of people who believed in immersion baptism. Some who believed in immersion, also believed what any believer would call heretical beliefs too. Wickliffe, Hus, Tyndale, were all heroes in faith in Christ--but not Baptists, sorry. Baptism became an issue AFTER Luther, as the Anabaptists were the left wing of the Reformation. Luther saw their "fanaticism" as destructive as the Roman corruption. Luther himself allied his church with the state, but in no way allowed it to be controlled by the princes. It took later Lutherans to do that.

The Roman church always had dissenters, but until the Reformation, their beliefs were not uniform, nor were they anything but few. The Church and King burned anyone alive who would dare openly criticize Rome's hegemony.

While I believe there has always been a faithful remnant in the Church, they weren't necessarily Baptist in belief. The only scholars who teach that there is an unbroken chain of Baptists are, ummmm, fundamentalist Baptists, for some reason.

32 posted on 10/31/2001 11:11:11 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: RaceBannon
The differences between these two "gospels" is in grave danger of being lost in our day.

IMO, that would be a good thing.

Evangelicals and Roman Catholics may want to battle over whether it is Sola Fide or whether works are an essential part of our salvation. I'm not sure Jesus would be proud of either one because both miss the essential point of the Gospel - it is a "Gospel of the Kingdom of G-d," not a "Gospel of Fire Insurance for those who will die some day." It is a Gospel of Life, not a Gospel of Death.

D. James Kennedy teaches us to ask, "Are you saved?" If they ask what that means we are to respond, "If you were to die tonight, would you go to Heaven?" This makes Christianity a religion of the dead. But Jesus told us "I came that they might have life."

What did Jesus do? Did He make a way for us to be forgiven of our sins? Yes! Did He make a way for us to have eternal life? Yes! Did He make a way for us to live like Hell and still go to Heaven? See Romans 6 and answer that for yourself.

To really understand the depth of our Salvation look at the theme that runs through Scripture:

In Genesis 1 and 2 G-d and man lived together in the Garden. Adam and G-d spoke 'face to face.' But when Adam sinned he was turned out of the Garden as we are told in Genesis 3:23. Adam could no longer dwell with G-d.

In Exodus 19 G-d attempts to join with His people, making them a nation of priests. But in Exodus 20:19 the people recognized that they were not holy enough to stand before G-d so they asked Moses to seperate the people from G-d for their safety. G-d created the Tabernacle and the Aaronic priesthood after this.

Hosea gave us the most clear picture of the relationship G-d wanted with his people. G-d saw us as his bride. We were wayward but He was willing to pay any price to redeem us to Himself.

In Jesus He paid the price. The veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple was torn in half. The Way was made.

Romans 5:1 says that because we have been justified by faith we have peace with G-d.

This is the key to our salvation. We have peace with G-d. We are no longer at war with Him. We can live in His presence. It is a Gospel of Life. Life with G-d. We don't have to wait until after we die, although it will be more complete when we are no longer in this broken world. Jesus told us in Luke 11:20 that the Kingdom of G-d had broken out among us. It is advancing forcefully and we are to take hold of it as told in Matthew 11:12.

If only we would quit arguing among ourselves regarding faith and works. Salvation is so much more than a token that lets you get into Heaven. It is your freedom from Sin so that you may enter into a relationship with G-d. You can do that today. Not after you die! TODAY!

Given that, why would you want to wait? That would be like a newleywed waiting until after death to consummate the marriage. You can start living for G-d today! If that isn't an act of faith, I don't know what is. If that doesn't produce works, I don't know what will.

Shalom.

49 posted on 10/31/2001 1:12:24 PM PST by ArGee
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To: RaceBannon
Argh. I cannot believe I am even taking the time to respond to Trail of Blood. Nontheless, here goes.

Medieval heretics were heretics by anyone's definition. Are you familiar with the beliefs of the Albigensians and Cathars, whom the book lists as baptists? The groups believed among other things that:

*The God of the Old Testament was a mad evil being who created the physical world out of ignorance and arrogance.

*It follows that matter is evil.

*Jesus was not the son of the OT God (known as the Demiurge), but his enemy.

*Jesus's goal was to free people from the physical world.

*Sex is abhorrent because it causes new people to be born and more matter to be created.

*If you positively must have sex, than anal and oral sex are the only approved methods.

*If you are unable to attain the rank of "Cathar," that is to say, "purified," than you can simply live a life free of moral constraint.

Now, last I checked, non of these are believed by most baptist churches. However, Trail of Blood says that the Albigensians and Cathars were baptists, and since these are among the many beliefs of those two groups, then, well, I'd always thought baptists were odd, but I had no idea...

In addition, there is not one single bit of historical evidence that states that those church elders who did not show up at Nicea were baptists. Zero. No primary source says anything about "baptists," or even groups that practice what baptists do. Are you aware of what the Donatists heresy stated? The Donatists believed that they were the only people who had the moral fiber to be proper Christians. The Donatists believed that people were saved by the righteousness of their works, and that sacraments were utterly invalid if administered by an elder who was in a state of sin. The Donatists were baptists? Trying to make baptists out of heretics is a neat idea if you're looking for some sort of apostollic succession, but it is utterly flawed. In none of the writings of the Fathers from Clement (writing just after the death of John) to Augustine (in the late 4th century) is there any mention of a church group that even resembles baptists. QED.

83 posted on 10/31/2001 3:22:32 PM PST by AndrewSshi
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