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To: Aurelius
thanks for this provocative post. interestingly enough, i think that hans and i want freedom. however, i disagree with his means to ensuring we have a government that guarantees freedom.

myth 1... the emergence of states has caused subsequent economic and civilization progress

we only need to study the romans to learn that this is not a myth. barbaric tribes brought the roman empire to its knees. without a strong state that ensures national security there will be no investment leading to economic improvement because the outsiders will gather the fruit of one's toils.

myth 2...there is near-universal agreement that democracy represents an advance over monarchy

democracy is an advance over monarchy. absolute monarchs keep their subjects in poverty, while tolerating a nobility class that help keep the peace and help bring wealth. democracy is responsible for the improvement of the human condition in western civilization.

as hans correctly points out, democracy does not guarantee freedom. democracy merely allows people to get the government that they deserve (er, i mean vote for). when the citizens do not understand democracy or are afraid to defend democracy, they will lose freedom, as happened in germany, italy and other cited situation. [nazi germany started out as a democracy, but quickly moved to a dictatorship as hitler solidified absolute power with a set of elitist rulers. the people of germany, who revere authority, for whatever reasons, did not stand up and by tacit approval allowed hitler the power he obtained.] nazi germany was a step from democracy to rule by the elite few.

myth 3 ... there is no alternative to western style democracies [to guarantee freedom]

his arguments backing the debunking of this myth ring hollow. replacing elected officials with an elite ruling class will result in a dictatorship. absolute power corrupts absolutely. sooner or later there will be corruption.

communism was supposed to be socialist system ruled by an elite few guaranteeing egalitarianism. history shows what has happened to our communist pals.

western style democracy is the only government that can guarantee the freedom of the citizens. as hans states, there are problems with it -- but throwing it out is not the answer. unfortunately, because of racism and those who would otherwise limit the freedom of others (thievery, crime, etc.), the government must put in place rules to ensure that the rule of the majority do not violate the rights of the minority. in the united states we have defined a set of laws that undergird our constitution and also have a bill or rights dictating what each of us can do.

to stay in power, our elected officials must bribe the voters with various government programs. this sad fact does state that a free democracy will move to a socialist democracy. this is not a state i desire.

unfortunately, we do not have an economic bill of rights. our government can tax, implement socialist programs and implement welfare programs. it is too easy for our government to raise taxes, and this does what the barbarians of an earlier era does: keeps people from wantint to invest in economic progress.
we need an economic bill of rights that limits how much taxing and spending our government can do. tax limits should be set and a balanced budget must be guaranteed. this has the further benefit of limiting how much our elected officials can bribe their way to office.

democracy is not the scourge of freedom, rather it is its friend. freedom is only guaranteed with a strong government that guarantees security. economic growth comes by allowing those who invest to reap their rewards. our constitution requires some changes to ensure we do not move further into a socialist democracy.
20 posted on 11/12/2001 9:45:18 AM PST by mlocher
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To: mlocher
Since Aurelius seems to be leaving your post untouched, I'll address it.

myth 1... the emergence of states has caused subsequent economic and civilization progress

we only need to study the romans to learn that this is not a myth. barbaric tribes brought the roman empire to its knees. without a strong state that ensures national security there will be no investment leading to economic improvement because the outsiders will gather the fruit of one's toils.

Well, that's the Roman's spin on the fall of their Empire. Too bad it's a whitewash of their history. As Roman politics got more and more populist and their military bureaucracy more and more entrenched their civilization declined. The number one reason the barbarians won is taxes. If you were a peasant you ate more under the barbarians. The collapse of Rome primarily benefitted the illiterate which is why we consider it a "dark" time.

myth 2...there is near-universal agreement that democracy represents an advance over monarchy

democracy is an advance over monarchy. absolute monarchs keep their subjects in poverty, while tolerating a nobility class that help keep the peace and help bring wealth. democracy is responsible for the improvement of the human condition in western civilization.

Here you are attributing the growth of the middle class to democracy rather than to its true source, industrialization. Democracy allows the people to vote themselves a share of other people's property. This "communalizing" of property leads to moral decay and provides the intellectual climate necessary for socialism and/or fascism.

myth 3 ... there is no alternative to western style democracies [to guarantee freedom]

his arguments backing the debunking of this myth ring hollow. replacing elected officials with an elite ruling class will result in a dictatorship. absolute power corrupts absolutely. sooner or later there will be corruption.

Here you misunderstand Hoppe. Hoppe is not advocating monarchy. Rather, he is saying monarchy is better in most respects than democracy. The system he advocates is what is known as "market anarchism."

Hoppe's fundamental unit of "government" is insurance. He envisions a world of thousands of gated communities and city-states linked by a common law court system.

Unfortunately, we do not have an economic bill of rights. our government can tax, implement socialist programs and implement welfare programs. it is too easy for our government to raise taxes, and this does what the barbarians of an earlier era does: keeps people from wanting to invest in economic progress.

I think we've seen that democracy isn't restrained by a civil liberties bill of rights -- so why would we believe it would be restrained by an economic one. Political power is the power to steal. Giving it to a small handful of people is flawed (monarchy) but giving it to everyone (democracy) is a disaster. Best that no one be consider a "legitimate thief."

48 posted on 11/12/2001 11:45:53 AM PST by Entelechy
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