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Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins

Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam

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To: BluH2o
The Breton language spoken in Brittany appears to be an odd mix of French and Welsh. I speak both French and Welsh to a limited degree. I can muddle my way through Breton as a written language. Cornish bears a small similarity to Welsh as well. The last native Cornish speaker died about 20 years ago.
51 posted on 12/06/2001 3:51:39 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin
Bump for the night crew.
52 posted on 12/06/2001 6:32:18 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Yeah blam, but this does not answer the question. What do those Celt men wear under those kilts?
53 posted on 12/06/2001 6:48:34 PM PST by lexington minuteman 1775
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To: blam
This whole thread, as well as the original article, proved to be quite interesting, thank you for starting it all. It's quite fascinating how the "old legends" and "fairy tales" may prove to have more to them than the more orthodox historians like to think.
54 posted on 12/06/2001 6:55:59 PM PST by white rose
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To: blam
Virtually all the population of NW Europe is of Celtic origin. Too many academics have defined Celtic too narrowly. (Click on my Profile.)
55 posted on 12/06/2001 6:56:54 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: lexington minuteman 1775

I don't see any mention of anything under the kilt.

56 posted on 12/06/2001 6:58:31 PM PST by blam
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To: lexington minuteman 1775
Yeah blam, but this does not answer the question. What do those Celt men wear under those kilts?

Aye, but there is nothing worn under those kilts. All parts are in working order ;-)

57 posted on 12/06/2001 6:59:27 PM PST by kstewskis
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To: Interesting Times
This would be adequately explained if the invaders killed the men and ravished the women...

If you go into a town and kill all the men, then you have to do all the work to keep the town going, and frankly, that's the very thing you got in your boat to avoid doing in the first place.

58 posted on 12/06/2001 7:00:46 PM PST by Elihu Burritt
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To: lexington minuteman 1775
Nothing, of course. That's the point of the kilt!

You know, the ancient Celts would rush upon their enemy without a stich of clothing, aside from perhaps a golden torque around their neck, screaming and whooping up a storm. Scared the mess out of the Romans. And the Irish had a thing they called warp spasm, in which the warrior became un-naturaly enraged as he plunged into the throes of battle-his eyes would burn, he would seemingly loose all sense of reason and ration, and strike out into the midst of his enemy's lines whooping and hollering, his sword flinging about, simply terrifying his foe. N B Forrest, who, incidentally or not, was of Gaelic axtraction, acted muc hin the same way in battle: he would rush into enemy lines (a major general now) with not a gray clad soul near him, and begin whacking Federal troopers off their horses with his saber in the left hand, and blasting away with a revolver in his right, with an energy and force that would quite often turn the Union troops and send them fleeing. In one battle, he killed at least four or five soldiers with his sword and likely wounded many others-all while surrounded by enemy calvary men. Perhaps that ancient warrior Celt in his blood coursing through. It kept the sceer up!

59 posted on 12/06/2001 7:14:02 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: blam
WCPs rule! What would also be of interset would be to check if a Basque genitic signature could be found in the British Isle as well continetal europe.
60 posted on 12/06/2001 7:23:09 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: RightWhale
I don't know, but I heard that Finnish and possibly Hungarian [Magyar] are related to Basque.

I had never heard of a connection between the Uralic languages (Finnish and Magyar), and the Basques. We Finns arrived in Europe at the end of the period before Christ, and our Magyar cousins arrived about 1000 years later (slothful, right). I had thought that there was evidence that the Basques had been around in their vicinity so long that some people think that they might actually be Cro-Magnon man!!

This is a fascinating subject, since the whole question of ethnic relationships and decent had become quite un-PC due to the bad uses it had been put to by those who confounded the linguistic term 'Indo-European', with the ethnic term 'Aryan'. For decades after the Nazis, any mention of ethnic, or blood, relationships were a very strict no-no, so that you could say that linguistic affinity, say between Germans and Hindus, was not evidence of a blood relationship. This genetic evidence is forcing this question to become again discussible in polite society. Expect BIG TROUBLE about this from the same people who think that genetics have no effect on behavior. (They think it isn't important, but that you must not talk about it.)

61 posted on 12/06/2001 7:24:54 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: blam
, I've read that the Basque of Spain/France are most closely related to the Scots and Irish. The Basque language (and to a large degree their DNA) is unlike all other Indo-European languages. (They appear to be a group that was isolated in ancient times)

These two sentences were obviously from two differnet sources.

It has long been my contention that the Basque were indigenous to all of europe before the Celtic invasions.

Could the Basque be desendents of the neolithic beaker people?

62 posted on 12/06/2001 7:32:41 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: Cleburne
The battles as shown in the movie Braveheart took some artistic liberties with the dress of the period. The Battle of Stirling Bridge occurred on 9-11-1297. It is my understanding that the kilt was not worn by the Scots until some time in the 1400's.

When the Celts attacked the Romans they were frequently buck naked. The Celts were in the six foot range while the Romans were closer to the five foot range, 5'2" if I remember correctly.

63 posted on 12/06/2001 7:39:17 PM PST by blam
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To: rightofrush
"These two sentences were obviously from two differnet sources."

You are correct. Two different studies.

"Could the Basque be desendents of the neolithic beaker people?"

I don't know any thing about the beaker people. I expect the Basque did have a larger area under their control at one time. They probably survived all attacks by withdrawing to the mountains between Spain/France where they live to this day.

64 posted on 12/06/2001 7:45:58 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
The Celts were in the six foot range while the Romans were closer to the five foot range, 5'2" if I remember correctly.

And the Celts had those long slashing swords, while the Romans had the short, stabbing Gladius. The early form of the Roman legion, based on the 50 man maniple could not stand up to the Gauls, while the later legion, based on the 360 man cohort was able to do a better job.

65 posted on 12/06/2001 7:47:58 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: blam
Albanian, which presumably is a descendant of the ancient Illyrian language

Whew, blam, it is a very good thing that you didn't say this on one of the Albanian -Serbian threads. As I have found out by doing so, some folks get really, really sore at you if you do!!

66 posted on 12/06/2001 7:51:04 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: rightofrush
Beaker People

The Beaker People, partially credited with the building with the second stage of Stonehenge, are late Stone Age people who are thought to have emerged around 2200 BC. They were so named by archaeologists because of the brightly colored, geometrically patterned earthenware drinking vessels often found in their graves. It is thought they made these vessels for over five centuries.

They might have been immigrants who crossed the North Sea, or local people who had developed new ideas and ways of doing things.

It is speculated that these people were farmers, living in huts grouped in small villages.

The Beaker People radically changed Stonehenge by constructing two concentric but incomplete circles at its center. The blue stones which composed these circles where once thought to have been transported from the Preseli mountains in southern Wales, over 200 miles away. But upon the discovery of a similar stone in a nearby earthen barrow the theory emerged that the huge stones might have been deposited by glaciers in the area.

The changes which the Beaker People made at Stonehenge suggest that they were sun worshippers. It appears they made the monument into a temple of the sun, rather than the moon. In their burial mounds, or barrows, were found thin gold discs incised with simple sun-like motifs.

Another suggestion that the Beaker People worshipped the sun is that they changed the main axis of the henge by throwing 25 feet of the bank back into the ditch. This widened the northeast entrance to the right. This caused an adjustment in the axis from 46 degrees to 50 degrees from the north/south line. Then the middle of the wider entrance was now in alignment with the sunrise of the summer solstice.

The Beaker People also included a rectangle around the original standing Four Stations, which are thought to have been erected during the building of the first stage of Stonehenge, with the stones marking its corners. Lines drawn through the short sides of the rectangle seem to indicate the midsummer sunrise, while lines through the long side point to the most northerly position of the setting of the moon.

A diagonal running from east-southeast to west-northwest pointed to the sunset on May Day, the Celtic festival of Beltine, the "Shining One." (See Druidism.)

67 posted on 12/06/2001 7:51:54 PM PST by blam
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
"Whew, blam, it is a very good thing that you didn't say this on one of the Albanian -Serbian threads."

I just copied it from another site. Besides, I've learned (learning) not to get into arguments about such things. lol.

68 posted on 12/06/2001 7:56:05 PM PST by blam
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To: Cleburne
And the Irish had a thing they called warp spasm, in which the warrior became un-naturaly enraged as he plunged into the throes of battle-his eyes would burn, he would seemingly loose all sense of reason and ration, and strike out into the midst of his enemy's lines whooping and hollering, his sword flinging about, simply terrifying his foe.

THAT'S why I seem to 'lose it' when I fight. It's in the blood.

69 posted on 12/06/2001 8:11:36 PM PST by Dan from Michigan
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To: blam
When the Celts attacked the Romans they were frequently buck naked. The Celts were in the six foot range while the Romans were closer to the five foot range, 5'2" if I remember correctly.

That would make sense. Most of the men in my family is between 6'2 and 6'5.(I'm the shortest at 5'10) My Grandfather(full blooded Irish) was also 6'2.

I didn't think the Romans were that short.

70 posted on 12/06/2001 8:14:59 PM PST by Dan from Michigan
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To: blam
I once read somewhere that the vikings tended to go up the rivers, and thus the hills stayed more celt than the valleys, and that as of a couple of generations ago you could still see the physical differences based on topography. FWIW.
71 posted on 12/06/2001 8:16:24 PM PST by Torie
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
I had never heard of a connection between the Uralic languages (Finnish and Magyar), and the Basques

I don't know. Probably there is none. Probably the one who told me this is no linguist either.

72 posted on 12/06/2001 8:16:56 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: blam
bttt
73 posted on 12/06/2001 8:22:34 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: blam
>The area where Proto-Indo-European was originally spoken ... is still a matter of dispute, but various hints point to Eastern Europe, north and north-east of the Black Sea, and it seems to be rather clear that Indo-European languages are relatively late intruders in Western Europe.

This is especially interesting since it is at the same place, and perhaps the same time the 5 MILLION members of the Lost Tribes of Israel penetrated the Causasus Mountains, NE of the Black Sea, and where the CELTS suddenly appeared in history. Sounds like there is a great language story to be discovered here somewhere.

74 posted on 12/06/2001 8:29:30 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"This is especially interesting since it is at the same place, and perhaps the same time the 5 MILLION members of the Lost Tribes of Israel penetrated the Causasus Mountains, NE of the Black Sea, and where the CELTS suddenly appeared in history.

I went to your site and read this. I don't believe this and just did not want to confront you with that information. lol

75 posted on 12/06/2001 8:33:40 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
>The research confirms the Norwegian Vikings did not just raid and retreat to Scandinavia, but actually settled in Britain.

It is nice to see this again confirmed. The Vikings have long suffered at the hands of Roman historians who didn't much like them. They called the Vikings "bloodthirsty", and other historians just repeated what they read. How did those Roman historians describe their own activities at the Coliseum?

76 posted on 12/06/2001 8:34:05 PM PST by LostTribe
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Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: LN2Campy
>chiefly bent on settlement, not plunder, unlike the vikings a few hundred years later.

Oh, tut tut! You've been reading too many histories based on Roman rumour. That is really OLD and OUTDATED stuff.

Read more recent research which shows that most Vikings were farmers in search of additional land for their families as the weather warmed and the Scandinavian population grew but the arable land did not increase. Look how they civilized Ireland, well, at least compared to what it was. And, they were tremendous explorers and adventurers.

78 posted on 12/06/2001 8:41:24 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"They called the Vikings "bloodthirsty", and other historians just repeated what they read."

Just as they did the 'dumb brute', Neanderthals. (I think we are the Neanderthals, so there!)

79 posted on 12/06/2001 8:41:58 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Hi BLAM! Good to talk to you again. What is it you don't believe? Have you actually read the history of the Lost Tribes of Israel, or just shooting from the hip? There is an awful lot of information at my Profile, below.

I think your interest in tree rings is fascinating but I don't believe all of that either, thinking some of it is still a stretch. However I'm willing to learn, and hope it becomes a real valuable tool.

80 posted on 12/06/2001 8:46:12 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: blam
All this proves is that the Celts have an amazingly strong bloodline.
81 posted on 12/06/2001 8:48:29 PM PST by McGavin999
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To: blam
Click on the Homepage link in your Profile. THEN look at the URL address and see that it needs editing. (Hope you put lots of stuff about tree rings on that site when you develop it!)
82 posted on 12/06/2001 8:57:59 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"Have you actually read the history of the Lost Tribes of Israel, or just shooting from the hip?"

I read some of it then took a hip shot. lol (I promise to read it all) The tree rings are physical evidence supported by numerous ice core data, you gotta believe that, huh?

83 posted on 12/06/2001 8:59:38 PM PST by blam
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To: PJ-Comix
In Maryland, it would be Algonquin, Conoy Nation, Piscataway tribe. Only in the last 40 years was it proven that the Piscataways never left Maryland, but stayed and culturally assimilated, while retaining considerable ethnic continuity.
84 posted on 12/06/2001 9:01:02 PM PST by VietVet
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To: LostTribe
"Click on the Homepage link in your Profile. THEN look at the URL address and see that it needs editing."

I don't know what you mean, I'm not very computer smart. My son (Dr. blam) set that up for me last xmas when he was here. I'll try to figure out what you're talking about.

85 posted on 12/06/2001 9:04:33 PM PST by blam
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To: McGavin999
Would you believe Galatians in the Bible refers to Celts who settled in an area near Turkey? There was a Galicia in NW Spain and also in the Carpathians. the term is derived from Gaul which was the homeland of the Celts. Celts even lived in Southern Sweden. All Europeans are a bit Celt and all English are part Celt and part Germanic.
86 posted on 12/06/2001 9:06:43 PM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: blam
bump for later reading
87 posted on 12/06/2001 9:30:00 PM PST by d4now
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To: blam
>I don't know what you mean, I'm not very computer smart.

You can do it. First click on your own Profile, the name BLAM, at the lower bottom of any message YOU already SENT.

Then, at the upper right of your profile page which pops up, see the HOMEPAGE address your son installed, as in Geocities. CLICK on that HOMEPAGE.

Then, when that Geocities homepage comes up, look at the URL line and see that the address is wrong -- it's too long. Needs to be edited to get FreeRepublic out of it. That will route visitors to the right place.

88 posted on 12/06/2001 9:41:18 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: Eternal_Bear
>Would you believe Galatians in the Bible refers to Celts who settled in an area near Turkey?

Yep, this is the Galatia where Paul visited. Jesus said in Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was talking about Galatia and the other Celtic strongholds where Paul went.

Galacia and Phillipi and Ephesus and Corinth etc, were settlements of the Lost Tribes of Israel who, over 600 years before, escaped their Assyrian captivity and headed north through the Caucasas Mountains, thence westward to Galacia, and Hallstadt Austria, and Neuchatel Switzerland, and to the rest of North and Western Eurpope.

89 posted on 12/06/2001 9:51:54 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: BluH2o
Isn't the French Basque dialect very similar to the Welsh dialect? Read this sometime ago ...

No, but the dialect of Brittany is similar to Welsh. A wave of migration from Britain into Western France occurred after the Anglo-Saxon invasion.
90 posted on 12/06/2001 10:21:09 PM PST by Hemlock
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To: blam
I expect the Basque did have a larger area under their control at one time. They probably survived all attacks by withdrawing to the mountains between Spain/France where they live to this day.

You're right. They did control a larger area. In fact, they were known by the Romans as Aquitanians. Linguistic records have proven this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Prehistory and Connections with Other Languages

Scroll down for the information concerning the Aquitanians.
91 posted on 12/06/2001 10:30:11 PM PST by Hemlock
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To: LostTribe
You've been reading too many histories based on Roman rumour

It seems to me that you have a big chronology problem in many of your references. The Viking invasions of England and Gaul started around 900 BC, the western Roman Empire had ceased to exist nearly 500 years prior to this. If you mean Roman Catholic (which itself would be anachronistic), say so. If you mean 'Romania' (in the general sense, that is, all areas which had been part of the Empire), say so.

92 posted on 12/07/2001 12:47:43 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: blam
Just as they did the 'dumb brute', Neanderthals. (I think we are the Neanderthals, so there!)

Sorry blam, there are two problems with this: Neanderthals were extinct at the beginning of history, so historians say nothing about them, it is the anthropologists who do; while I would like to think that we have Neanderthal ancestors, it looks like modern genetics has ruled this out.

93 posted on 12/07/2001 12:51:39 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: LN2Campy
The Basques were excellent seamen and fished the Georges Bank for cod hundreds of years prior to Columbus.

That is highly improbable ... otherwise the Azores would have been discovered long before 1420 when the Portugese were the first Europeans to discover the islands.

94 posted on 12/07/2001 5:48:58 AM PST by BluH2o
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To: LostTribe
You're talking about the www.gulfcoasthurricanes.com home page? That was set up by SAS-MS for the Gulf Coast Chapter of FR. Looks like the rent wasn't paid. (ugh). I'll email her about this. lol.
95 posted on 12/07/2001 7:05:27 AM PST by blam
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To: Hemlock
"Prehistory and Connections with Other Languages.

Very interseting link. Thanks.

96 posted on 12/07/2001 7:15:35 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Yep, but this is what comes up when clicking on your HOME PAGE from outside your computer. (Not a big deal, but I thought you would like to know. It's a commonly seen error on FR.) Have a nice day. -LT

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/www.gulfcoasthurricanes.com

97 posted on 12/07/2001 7:18:24 AM PST by LostTribe
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
"Sorry blam, there are two problems with this: Neanderthals were extinct at the beginning of history, so historians say nothing about them, it is the anthropologists who do; while I would like to think that we have Neanderthal ancestors, it looks like modern genetics has ruled this out."

Yup. I've read those DNA reports. Discouraging, I agree.

98 posted on 12/07/2001 7:19:07 AM PST by blam
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To: Interesting Times; blam; harpseal; vikingchick
You don't even need to kill all or even most of the men.

Just kill the resistors and holdouts, and the rest will learn to say "Yes Sir" in the new language real fast.

99 posted on 12/07/2001 7:22:50 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: BluH2o
"The Basques were excellent seamen and fished the Georges Bank for cod hundreds of years prior to Columbus.

That is highly improbable ... otherwise the Azores would have been discovered long before 1420 when the Portugese were the first (modern) Europeans to discover the islands.

The comet that plunged into the Celtic Sea in 540AD and brought on the Dark Ages may have had something to do with this. (evidence for this comet is recorded in the worldwide tree ring data.)

100 posted on 12/07/2001 7:26:33 AM PST by blam
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