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Celebrating 470 years of an ongoing miracle, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531
Catholic History | 12 12 2001 | Cap'n Crunch

Posted on 12/12/2001 7:21:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch

In the year 1531 in Mexico, the Holy Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego, a peasant who was converting to Catholicism. It was the 9th of December, the original feast day of the Immaculate Conception, when Juan Diego was on his way to the Church for instruction and to hear Holy Mass. Juan heard someone calling him "Juanito...Juan Dieguito." Juan Diego looked to the top of Tepeyac Hill and saw a lady of overpowering brillance and beauty, who's garments shone like the sun. She appeared to be about 14 years old.

The Lady introduced herself in these words: "Know for certain, dearest of my sons, that I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God, through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things, who is Master of Heaven and Earth. I ardently desire that a temple be built here for me where I will show and offer all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful Mother, the Mother of all who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear there weeping and sorrows, and will remedy and alleviate their sufferings, necessites and misfortunes." She told Juan Diego to go the Bishop Zumarraga and tell him what he had seen and heard.

Juan Diego bowed reverently and said "My Holy One, my Lady, I will do what you ask of me."

Bishop Zumarraga had been sent by Spain to the New World to convert and instruct the native people. At that time in Mexico human sacrifice to the gods Quetelcoatl and Coatlicue, and various other pagan gods were occuring, as many as 20,000 victims would be sacrificed at the dedication of a temple.

Bishope Zumarraga had not been having much success converting the Aztec and native people and distrust and anger was spreading amongst the two. He had been praying to God for assistance and a sign, the sign was that of roses. Roses would be the sign that Bishop Zumarraga wanted in order to know that he was doing the right thing. But now it was December and roses were not blooming.

Juan Diego arrived and was greeted by the Bishop. The Bishop welcomed him warmly but upon hearing his story dismissed him pleasantly. Juan Diego thought he had failed and after hearing Mass and instruction returned to his home.

Our Lady appeared to him again, asking him if he had had success with the Bishop. Juan told Our Lady that he did not think the Bishop believed him and that perhasps she should send someone of greater importance. Our Lady smiled at Juan Diego, telling him that she had chosen him to be the deliverer of the message and urged him to return to the Bishop the next day and again make the request.

Juan Diego did return the next day and again gave the Bishop the message. Bishop Zumarraga was surprised to see Juan Diego again so soon. He questioned him a bit at length and again dismissed him. Now he wondered if there were something too Juans message. Before dismissing Juan Diego the Bishop told Juan that he needed a sign from the Lady to be convinced. Juan asked the Bishop what kind of sign he would like and he would tell the Lady the Bishops reequest. The Bishop told Juan that he would leave the sign up to the Lady to deliver.

On his way back home Juan Diego again encountered Our Lady. He told her that the Bishop had requested a sign but did not say what the sign should be. Our Lady told Juan: "That is very well,my little son, return here tomorrow and you will have the sign he requested." She also told him that he would be rewarded for all he had done on her behalf.

When Dec. 11th came Juan Diegos uncle, Juan Bernardino, was gravely ill and Juan Diego stayed by his side and did not go to the Bishop. All night he prayed and attended to his uncle until the morning of the 12th when his uncle took a turn for the worse. Juan wanted to get a priest to enable his uncle to recieve the sacraments before he died.

Juan now had a dilemma, if he went past Tepeyac hill he was sure to encounter the Lady. He wanted to get the priest in order to bring him to his uncle before he died but did not want to disappoint Our Lady so he decided to go around the other side of Tepeyac hill. He thought that surely Our Lady would understand.

As Juan Diego tried to duck Our Lady he was suddenly intercepted by her, as she called out to him "What is the matter my little son?" "Where are you going?" Juan explained to the Lady "Noble Lady, it will grieve you to hear what I have to say. My uncle, your poor servant, is very sick. He is suffering from the plague and is dying. I am hurrying to the Church in Mexico City to call a priest to here his confession and give him the last rites. When I have done this, I will return here immediately to convey your message." "Please forgive me and be patient with me. I am not decieving you. I promise to faithfully come here tomorrow with all haste."

There was a pause. Our Lady looked at Juan Diego and uttered the words that have rung down through nearly 5 centuries. "Listen and let it penetrate your heart, my dear little son, do not be troubled or weighed down with grief. Do not fear any illness or vexation, anxiety or pain. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle? In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?" She then assured Juan that his uncle would not die from his illeness and at this very moment was cured.

She told Juan to go to the top of Tepeyac Hill and pick as many flowers as he could carry and bring them down to her. Juan climbed the hill and could not believe the multitude of Castilian Roses blooming on the top. They were blooming out of season. He gathered as many as he could carry and brought them down to Our Lady, who arranged them in his tilma (poncho made of cactus plant fibers. Our Lady arranged them and folded them up in Juans tilma. She told him that this was the sign that the Bishop wanted and to take them to him.

Juan Diego finally got in to see the Bishop with his bundle. The Bishop recieved Juan and Juan told him the following. "Your Excellency, I obeyed your instructions, very early this morning, the celestial Lady told me to come and see you again. I asked for the sign which you requested and which she had promised to give me. She told me to climb to the top of the hill where I had previously seen her, to pick the flowers growing there. I knew quite well that the summit of the hill was no place for flowers to grow, especially this time of year, but I did not doubt her word. When I reached the top, I was astonised to find myself surrounded by beautiful flowers. I plucked as many as I could carry and brought them back to her. She arranged them with her own hands and replaced them in my robe in order that I might bring them to you. Here they are. Behold, recieve them." With that Juan Diego released the ends of his tilma and the flowers, mingled with Castillian Roses, cascaded to the floor in a profusion of colour and perfume.

Zumarraga gazed speechless at the roses, the sign that he had been praying for peace in the country. Full of wonder he lifted his eyes back up to Juan Diego to find that the tilma now had an image of Our Lady appearing on it.

From that day, December 12th 1531, the tilma has survived, miraculously. At that time 8 million Mexicans and Aztec Indians converted to Catholicism. The human sacrifice to the pagan gods ceased.

For nearly 500 years there have been miracles through Our Lady and the tilma. Scientists have studied it, socialist revolutionaries tried to destroy it, there have been volumes written about the tilma, which is very much like the Shroud of Turin.

On this feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which means to the Aztecs "she who crushes the head of the serpent" I would urge you to read the story, say some special prayers to Our Lady, particularly to end the human sacrifice of abortion in this country.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
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"My litte son," how wonderful that would be to hear Our Lady say to me, to us. The first time I read her words to Juan Diego I was brought back to the Church. I will try to provide some links. I'm not very sophisticated for pictures.

De Maria Numquam Satis!

1 posted on 12/12/2001 7:21:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
heres a website:

http://www.sancta.org/

2 posted on 12/12/2001 7:26:18 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
"My Holy One, my Lady, I will do what you ask of me."

There is only one "Holy One", and that is Jesus Christ the Lord! The Catholic Church's worship of Mary is shameful. Mary was esteemed as a faitful servant in Scriptures - nothing more, nothing less. To attribute supernatural powers to Mary is just plain wrong, no matter how many apparitions of her are seen. Mary doesn't even know we exist. She is enjoying the presence of God in heaven along with the rest of believers who have passed from this earth.

3 posted on 12/12/2001 7:35:58 AM PST by AsYouAre
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To: AsYouAre
Italics off
4 posted on 12/12/2001 7:37:20 AM PST by AsYouAre
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Oh, good grief. And to think we all laughed at Linus when he thought he saw The Great Pumpkin rising out of the pumpkin patch.

Nothing like perpetuating superstition....

5 posted on 12/12/2001 7:40:44 AM PST by Own Drummer
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Bump, Captain.

I invite you all to have a gander at my wifes Rosary at

www.RosaryMaker.com

for a simplified explaination and view of a beautiful work of art.
6 posted on 12/12/2001 7:41:24 AM PST by ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton
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To: Own Drummer
Nothing like perpetuating superstition....

Or Anti-Catholic bigotry.

7 posted on 12/12/2001 7:58:12 AM PST by TonyInOhio
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To: AsYouAre
Have you ever read anything about the appearance? Have you ever seen a book about the image of Our Lady? I think you do not fully understand, because if you did I believe you would love her also.
8 posted on 12/12/2001 7:58:39 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
This couldn't have been a Spanish invention, could it? So to facilitate less troublesome conversions?
9 posted on 12/12/2001 7:58:40 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Juan Diego finally got in to see the Bishop with his bundle.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

10 posted on 12/12/2001 8:00:05 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: TonyInOhio
Or Anti-Catholic bigotry.

Ooh, the dreaded "B" word! One man's bigotry is another man's religious freedom. Can't we all just get along?

11 posted on 12/12/2001 8:01:38 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: SoothingDave
Marian bump.
12 posted on 12/12/2001 8:02:39 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Own Drummer
Don't criticize what you won't understand. We have not earned the right to fight one another in public while mutually attacked by our common secularist and satanic enemies. There is little likelihood that this thread will change your mind and none that your post will change ours.

Whenever we find ourselves falling into strife against one another we give aid and comfort to the servants of our mutual and most ancient enemy.

13 posted on 12/12/2001 8:03:11 AM PST by BlackElk
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To: newgeezer
Ooh, the dreaded "B" word! One man's bigotry is another man's religious freedom. Can't we all just get along?

Well, it didn't work for Rodney King. :-)

I like the principle, tho. The thing is, no one knows you're a bigot until you open your mouth (or post it on a thread).

14 posted on 12/12/2001 8:04:45 AM PST by TonyInOhio
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To: Own Drummer
Superstition? Have you ever seen the tilma or read about it? It's still on display, nearly 500 years old. A tilma of these type of fibers rots away naturally after about 40 years.

Like I said, scientists & opthamologists have studied it and can't explain it. It's much like the Shroud.

In 1921 a powerful bomb was placed by socialist revolutionaries right below it in an attempt to destroy it. The explosion damaged the Church but did not even crack the glass on the frame.

This tilma/image has undergone extensive research and it still cannot be explained.

It's the old adage, 'for those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't no explanation will do.'

15 posted on 12/12/2001 8:05:02 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: BlackElk
We have not earned the right to fight one another in public while mutually attacked by our common secularist and satanic enemies.

So, you're saying Own Drummer is a Roman Catholic?

16 posted on 12/12/2001 8:06:33 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton
I've seen the rosaries, they are magnificent, I'd like to get a few of them. Especially the Guadalupe rosary!
17 posted on 12/12/2001 8:07:36 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
There was a pause. Our Lady looked at Juan Diego and uttered the words that have rung down through nearly 5 centuries. "Listen and let it penetrate your heart, my dear little son, do not be troubled or weighed down with grief. Do not fear any illness or vexation, anxiety or pain. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle? In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?"

Why is there absolutely no mention of Jesus in your story?

18 posted on 12/12/2001 8:09:05 AM PST by agrace
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To: TonyInOhio
The thing is, no one knows you're a bigot until you open your mouth (or post it on a thread).

The thing is, some people are too quick to slap the "bigot" label on anyone with a differing opinion.

19 posted on 12/12/2001 8:09:20 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: *Catholic_list; patent
FYI BUMP
20 posted on 12/12/2001 8:09:58 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Ave Maria!
21 posted on 12/12/2001 8:12:35 AM PST by el_chupacabra
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To: AsYouAre
There is only one "Holy One", and that is Jesus Christ the Lord! The Catholic Church's worship of Mary is shameful. Mary was esteemed as a faitful servant in Scriptures - nothing more, nothing less. To attribute supernatural powers to Mary is just plain wrong, no matter how many apparitions of her are seen. Mary doesn't even know we exist. She is enjoying the presence of God in heaven along with the rest of believers who have passed from this earth.

Because of this apparition, the Aztecs converted to Christianity. Whether or not you believe it, Mary's sole purpose is to lead people to Jesus. That's exactly what happened in this case.

I lifted the following from The Word Among Us. Please read it ...

What were the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria? If you answered that they were the three ships on which Christopher Columbus and his crew sailed to the Americas in 1492, you win ten celestial points! Now, the bonus question: What do the names of the ships mean? The answer is "the girl" (Nina), "paints" (Pinta), "Holy Mary" (Santa Maria). And this is the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

In 1519, Hernando Cortes conquered Mexico, ending the Aztecs' empire. A proud and cultured people, the Aztecs resented their Spanish conquerors and were resistant to the Christianity they brought with them. On December 12, 1531, an Indian named Juan Diego told the archbishop of Mexico City that he had seen the Virgin Mary on a hill outside of town. The archbishop asked for a sign, and Juan Diego returned with a cloak full of beautiful roses given him by the mysterious lady--an impossibility in December! On the inside of his cloak was a beautiful image of the lady. The "girl" who appeared to Juan Diego had "painted" herself, and she was "Holy Mary." To this day, the physical properties of this image remain scientifically inexplicable.

As news of this event spread, thousands of Indians came to believe in Jesus and accepted baptism. Likewise, there was a renewal of faith among thousands of the already baptized Spaniards.

The message of the miraculous image in Juan Diego's cloak is that God is alive and cares about each and every one of his people. Just as God used this extraordinary means to reach the people of the Amer-icas, he is equally eager to deliver all of us from sin, to heal our broken hearts, to reconcile the estranged. He is so eager that he is even willing to bend the rules of nature at times to get our attention!

God doesn't just want unbelievers to believe in him; he wants those who do believe to know him more deeply. That's why he keeps sending us his word to remind us that he is with us. Every day he encourages us to keep fighting the fight of faith. He assures us that he loves us with an unchangeable love.

22 posted on 12/12/2001 8:13:55 AM PST by al_c
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: newgeezer
Certain groups of people are noticably quick to use the B word aren't they?
24 posted on 12/12/2001 8:16:25 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: newgeezer
I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

I wrote:

The thing is, no one knows you're a bigot until you open your mouth (or post it on a thread).

And you replied:

The thing is, some people are too quick to slap the "bigot" label on anyone with a differing opinion.

Own Drummer is entitled to his own opinions, and beliefs, as are you. But when he labels mine, and those of every Roman Catholic FReeper, "superstition", he's passed over from opinion to bigotry.

25 posted on 12/12/2001 8:20:43 AM PST by TonyInOhio
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To: AsYouAre
There are many interesting facts about the image. As the protestant revolt was going on in Europe and millions were leaving the faith, Our Lady appeared in Mexico and millions came into the Church. And, human sacrifice ended.

When Columbus sailed to the Americas his ships were (of course) the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria. I understand it means "the girl, Holy Mary, paints herself." And that is exactly what Our Lady did, she left us a painting of herself.

When the Indians were celebrating the miracluous image, one shot an arrow into the sky which killed another. The tilma was placed over the dead man and he was restored to life.

The images in the eyes of Our Lady have been studied for years. When eye doctors look into the eyes they say it is exactly like looking into a human eye. There are images of those people who were present when Juan Diego opened the tilma, including Bishop Zumarraga and Juan Diego, in the eyes on the image.

It is quite something to see.

The name Guadalupe, had a meaning for both the natives and the Spanish. To the natives it meant (Quatzalupe) "she who crushes the head of the serpent." The serpent god Quetzlcoatl. To the Spanish it was the name of a river in Spain, I believe it translates into 'river of light'. But a statue of Our Lady holding an infant Jesus was found buried in the mud of the river. So both cultures had a meaning.

26 posted on 12/12/2001 8:21:15 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch; newgeezer; SoothingDave
Mother of the True God

Very interesting when compared to John 17 where Jesus says "That they might know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent".

MOG has always had a mother of the Father sound to it to me and this proves it.

27 posted on 12/12/2001 8:21:24 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: agrace
Wherever Our Lady goes, there Jesus is, just like in the Gospel.

Regardless of how you feel about Our Lady, what do you think of the miraculous tilma? Have you read about it? It is very much like the Shroud of Turin.

28 posted on 12/12/2001 8:24:06 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
These are not apparitions by The Lady of Guadalupe, these are Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Bonafide encounters with real aliens....kinda like E.T. the Extra Testicle. These folks look for apparitions and appearances on everything from tree trunks, to reflections in stained glass and even cinnamon rolls. I read abount an appearance of the Guadalupe lady and she was reportedly wearing a Tin Foil hat and gown.
29 posted on 12/12/2001 8:24:55 AM PST by Delbert
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To: biblewonk
Certain groups of people are noticably quick to use the B word aren't they?

Certain groups of people look for any reason to ridicule Catholics.

I've yet to see a Fundamentalist thread disrupted by Catholics, yet you Bible-beaters troll this place, literally jumping offside in your efforts to belittle your fellow Christians.

You may know your bible, but your mama didn't teach you one damn bit of manners or courtesy.

30 posted on 12/12/2001 8:25:21 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: AsYouAre
We do not worship Mary. Get your facts straight before you start bashing something you obviously know nothing about!
31 posted on 12/12/2001 8:27:13 AM PST by sean327
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I am not familiar with the catholic church. am i correct in saying that it is a monotheistic religion with a god named Mary? this is what i gather from this article. just wondering, i'm always curious about the gods that other religious groups worship. thanks.
32 posted on 12/12/2001 8:28:09 AM PST by pro-life
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To: al_c
Can any of you fellow Catholic FReepers put a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the post? I'm afraid I can't do it.

Thanks.

Info about the images in the eyes would be neat :0)

33 posted on 12/12/2001 8:29:09 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: sinkspur
I've yet to see a Fundamentalist thread disrupted by Catholics, yet you Bible-beaters troll this place, literally jumping offside in your efforts to belittle your fellow Christians.

I suspect that you are a little less sensitive to the anti sola scriptura, anti protestant, anti bible, anti everything non-catholic that comes out of catholics all over the FR. But that's what the FR is for and I don't see non-catholics whine about being challenged and mocked. We expect it. We are told to expect it.

You may know your bible, but your mama didn't teach you one damn bit of manners or courtesy.

I'm sure you are the picture of patience and civility on the good ole FR like so many other RC's I've 'encountered' here have been.

34 posted on 12/12/2001 8:31:51 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Mother child worship goes all the way back to Babylonian culture, it was an attempt by early (misguided)christian missionaries to appease and entice practitioners of pagan religions by including some aspects of mother child worship in the early christian propaganda. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO THE FATHER AND THAT IS THROUGH THE SON.
35 posted on 12/12/2001 8:32:45 AM PST by Delbert
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To: Delbert
The Church investigates apparitions. Some they investigate and believe are supernatural they say are 'worthy of belief', this is the case with Our Lady of Guadalupe. Others, they dismiss entirely, and there are miriad that have been dismissed. We wait for the Church's decision on the matter. That is why we are careful when such things occur.

By the way, have you ever studied the tilma for yourself?

36 posted on 12/12/2001 8:33:32 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: TonyInOhio
No, I think you made yourself quite clear. So, tell me, can there be no religion in the world whose beliefs you would dare label "superstition"? Or, do we all worship the same god, no matter what our beliefs may be?
37 posted on 12/12/2001 8:33:44 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: Delbert
'Honor your father and your mother'

So, have you read about or seen the tilma for yourself or will you continue to let other people make all your decisions for you? If you haven't studied it for yourself, how can you say it's bogus?

38 posted on 12/12/2001 8:36:27 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch; sinkspur
Thanks for your beautiful post.

I knew that the Anti-Catholic bigots would spread their lies within ten posts. I was right, of course.

Sancta Maria, mater dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae, amen.

39 posted on 12/12/2001 8:36:32 AM PST by d-back
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To: allend
I know that Catholics do not worship Mary, they simply pay her too much attention. They think if a mother would talk to her son into favors for them, that would be easier than talking to the son directly. To each his own, I guess!

My problem with all that appearance/disappearance stuff is IT JUST DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENCE!!!!

Why can't Mary or Jesus for that matter appear in the sky, say above New York and talk to the multitude in English, and in the same time, he or she can appear in sky above,say Moscow and talk to the people in Russian, and in the same exact time appears at Peking, and talk in Chinese???

Even in today technology, that appears to be very possible, but certainly it can bring people to appreciate the Lord's presence. I am sure, he knows better ways to show himself in an unenbigous way. But he does not seem to be interested. A couple of thousands years ago, he showed up briefly, and now all these generations got nothing but blind faith in some historical story?

40 posted on 12/12/2001 8:37:42 AM PST by philosofy123
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To: biblewonk
I suspect that you are a little less sensitive to the anti sola scriptura, anti protestant, anti bible, anti everything non-catholic that comes out of catholics all over the FR. But that's what the FR is for and I don't see non-catholics whine about being challenged and mocked. We expect it. We are told to expect it.

You WILL be mocked if you continue to lie like this.

41 posted on 12/12/2001 8:38:10 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Wherever Our Lady goes, there Jesus is, just like in the Gospel.

Regardless of how you feel about Our Lady, what do you think of the miraculous tilma? Have you read about it? It is very much like the Shroud of Turin.

First, in the gospels, Mary followed Jesus, not the other way around, which may not be how you meant it above, but it is typed as such.

Second, if there is no mention of Jesus in the message, how are those receiving it to know He is there?

Regarding the shroud - I'm skeptical of it myself. And no I am not familiar at all with the tilma.

42 posted on 12/12/2001 8:40:56 AM PST by agrace
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To: Cap'n Crunch
no I havent ..and I mean no disrespect...I've had a bit of a bad morning so I am being a smartA$$. But I was married to a Hispanic woman for 10 years and her very Catholic mother was in to worshipping all these different "Our Lady of This and That" apparitions....they were popping up all over the place....and some of them were, as i stated in my earlier post, on tree trunks, fogged glass, and yes...even cinnamon rolls...A cinnamon roll had an anamoly on it that looked like on of these "lady apparitions" on it, it was stuffed into a glass case and the faithful lined up for miles to pay homage to Our Lady of the Cinnamon Roll....It just seems like it's polytheistic as opposed to monotheistic...I choose to go by the words of Jesus Christ and he never told me to worship his earthly mom. He told me to follow him. And seeing as how he defeated death and was resurrected, i think I'll take his word for it.
43 posted on 12/12/2001 8:42:01 AM PST by Delbert
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Cap'n Crunch
Regardless of how you feel about Our Lady, what do you think of the miraculous tilma? Have you read about it? It is very much like the Shroud of Turin.

So, this "tilma" is a fraud, too?

;-)

45 posted on 12/12/2001 8:43:48 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: pro-life
I like your monicer, pro-life. The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is the only apparition in which she appears or is depicted as pregnant. Our Lady has a black sash tied around her waist. I understand it means that she is "in ribbons" or pregnant.

She has promised that through the image of Guadalupe she will again crush the head of satan as she crushed the head of the serpent god Quatzlcoatl. And she will end the human sacrifice of abortion as she ended the pagan human sacrifices in 1531.

If you'd like to find out more about the Catholic faith you can call your nearest catholic church, I'm sure they have classes which you can attend to become catholic. Or, there is much information available from books or on line.

Best wishes.

46 posted on 12/12/2001 8:46:47 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: allend
False juxtaposition. All religion started with Adam and Eve. As time passed error, superstition, etc. crept in. Eventually, in some cases, you end up with full-blown paganism, but it would be impossible for find a religion without at least some shreds of truth left.

The point remains: If you dare call anyone's religious belief -- an apparition, triskaidekaphobia, idol worship, voodoo, whathaveyou -- a "superstition," TonyInOhio brands you a "bigot."

47 posted on 12/12/2001 8:50:58 AM PST by newgeezer
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyInOhio
Or Anti-Catholic bigotry.

Ok, I see, if one points out that Mariology has no real Biblical or Theological basis, one is a bigot and catholic basher right? Sorry, guy, the burden of proof is in your court not ours. If you cannot handle theological debate, if it hurts your feelings, get off the thread.

49 posted on 12/12/2001 8:52:17 AM PST by realpatriot71
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To: d-back
Yes, I knew that when I posted this that the mud slinging would start. I thought about it for awhile. I'm sure that Our Lady can use this to touch someone and maybe convert them or they will find out about the image for the first time, like I did when I was 30.

She really is wonderful isnt she?

"Whoever is a little one, let him come to me"-Our Lady's words to St. John Bosco

(Wish someone could post Our Lady of Guadalupe's picture)

Oh, just like they hated Jesus without cause, they hate Our Lady without cause, without finding out for themselves. Even Martin Luther, one of the fathers of protestantism, had a devotion to Our Lady.

50 posted on 12/12/2001 8:52:45 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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