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THE CONNECTION BETWEEN CONTRACEPTION AND ABORTION
Priests for Life, Canada ^ | Professor Janet E. Smith, PhD

Posted on 12/13/2001 10:02:59 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM

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To: ArGee
Child support is a relativley new term; and it wouldn't exist in most cases without recent legislative enforcement.
21 posted on 12/13/2001 12:12:38 PM PST by Sam's Army
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To: Sam's Army
Additionally, if this is truly the first time in human history that men have viewed women as sexual toys...how do we explain prostitution, the "oldest profession"?
22 posted on 12/13/2001 12:20:47 PM PST by Sam's Army
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To: ArGee
Now, for the first time in all of human history, the male half of the human race is free to use women as the sexual toys that they were intended to be without having to be concerned with stupid romantic entanglements or silly child support.

Hey, we men deserve some perks too, don't we?

Look, the freedom to make choices doesn't guarantee the choices made will be good ones, nor does it guarantee that people will even agree on what the definition of a "good choice" is. Some men will treat women as sex toys, and some women will accept that treatment (and some women will treat men as sex toys, plus all the other combinations and permutations). In other cases men and women will have much deeper and more meaningful romantic relationships because they don't feel trapped by unwanted babies or overwhelmed by the financial pressures of those children. It depends on the individuals involved, and what they want to do with their lives.

That's what a free society is all about.

23 posted on 12/13/2001 12:27:13 PM PST by dpwiener
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To: proud2bRC
"You laid out the party line verbatim. Are you a card carrying NOW member? No offense intended, honest, but they say we Catholics don't think for ourselves. You comment could be pulled right from a PP brochure or NOW literature."

I'm glad that you think for yourself and that you are happy with the choice you have made regarding natural birth control.

Never mind where dpwiener's statement came from. It's a valid point and it was expressed eloquently.

Not everyone is catholic, and given that fact, it is nice for those of us who are NOT catholic to have other options.

24 posted on 12/13/2001 12:28:19 PM PST by MissMillie
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To: Sam's Army
Additionally, if this is truly the first time in human history that men have viewed women as sexual toys...how do we explain prostitution, the "oldest profession"?

I believe you missed the sarcasm in my post. The issues in the post to which I was replying haven't liberated women, they have enslaved them.

Shalom.

25 posted on 12/13/2001 12:37:26 PM PST by ArGee
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To: dpwiener
Look, the freedom to make choices doesn't guarantee the choices made will be good ones, nor does it guarantee that people will even agree on what the definition of a "good choice" is.

When all other things are equal, your analysis is a good one. All other things are not equal in sexual relationships. Women get pregnant. Men don't. Sometimes this puts the power advantage in the hands of a woman. In today's legal climate she can kill his preborn child and he can't do a thing about it. More often it gives the power to the man. In order to balance this, societies that care about their futures created the concept of family and created structures that protected women within the family and left them unprotected outside of the family.

However, with our fiddling with societal standards and mores, we have broken down that protection. Of course, as a society we are free to make that choice. But, as you pointed out, the freedom to make that choice doesn't guarantee it is a good one.

Dis-connecting the concept of reproduction from sexual activity has done more to harm women than to liberate them.

Shalom.

26 posted on 12/13/2001 12:42:04 PM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
You are correct; I missed by a country mile!
27 posted on 12/13/2001 12:44:30 PM PST by Sam's Army
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To: proud2bRC
What I find most interesting about this is that it is EXACTLY the point of view that the pro-choice movement is fighting against. Nobody sane (notice how I cleverly exclude most of the people in charge of Planed Parenthood) wants abortions to happen. But the choice crowd is afraid that once abortions are outlawed contraception won't be far behind. That's when we start getting into major bedroom laws and other stuff that a free society shouldn't have. Regardless of what you think of the relative morality of supposedly commitmentless sex (and boy are you delusional if you think the only way there can be emotional commitment in sex is if there's the chance of pregnancy) what two (or more) consenting adults do in their own home is none of your business, and whether or not they wear condoms while doing whatever they're doing is even more none of your business. And until this subsection of the prolife movement goes away there can never be any kind of peace in this divisive issue.
28 posted on 12/13/2001 12:50:06 PM PST by discostu
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To: dpwiener
Gender assumptions, the bane of informed debate and discourse on forums like FR. Sorry, man...I thought you was a womyn.
29 posted on 12/13/2001 12:53:45 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: discostu
And until this subsection of the prolife movement goes away there can never be any kind of peace in this divisive issue.

Ahh, the "get your rosaries off my ovaries" diatribe. I wondered how long till it reared its ugly head.

I cannot comprehend how some folks can read the crystal clear message of an article like the one above and still fail to...comprehend.

30 posted on 12/13/2001 12:56:58 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Sam's Army
Much as I hate to support him in many ways it does. Most of the historians that have studied the womens movement have shown a pretty strong corelation. The punchline being that women's empowerment in the way feminist movements define empowerment is not possible when the woman could become pregnant at any time and then lose time in the career. With contraception the woman can plan the absence from the "male game". Contraception, espcially convenient nonmessy contraception like the pill, is a major ingredient to being a feminist woman.
31 posted on 12/13/2001 12:59:20 PM PST by discostu
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To: ArGee
Dis-connecting the concept of reproduction from sexual activity has done more to harm women than to liberate them.

I understand your concerns, but I have to say I have a much more positive assessment of the long-term effects of contraception. I will admit that this is merely my viewpoint; it's too early to try to prove my case. As a society we are still sorting out the positive and negative impacts of contraception, which on the time-scale of human history has occurred in the blink of an eye. At the same time we are experiencing the continuous and accelerating impacts of still newer medical and technological developments involving sex and human reproduction.

My positive assessment is at least party fueled by my optimism about the evolutionary consequences of human freedom: Over time, bad choices tend to result in bad outcomes and therefore tend to weed themselves out, while good choices lead to good outcomes and become self-reinforcing.

Again, there are no guarantees in life. But liberty is worth the risk.

32 posted on 12/13/2001 1:04:38 PM PST by dpwiener
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To: proud2bRC
I do comprehend the message. You think you have the right to decide whether my wife and I have a child. You think that because my wife is on the pill our relationship lacks emotional commitment. And I think you need to wake up and join the modern world. We have medicines to control or at least alter every function of our body, I don't see you guys trying to outlaw antacid. Once again it's the classic example that some people are afraid others are having fun. The punch line is that if you'd get off your holy roll for 5 minutes and realized what your place in the world really is you realize that your position is silly. You and your spouse should decide what is right for you, if that means no contraception ever go ahead, don't bother me none. But it just bugs the crap out of you that my wife and I use contraception, who's really got the problem here? Who's peaking in other people's windows? Who's trying to make rules for everybody for no defensable reason?
33 posted on 12/13/2001 1:07:49 PM PST by discostu
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To: dpwiener
That's what a free society is all about.

Felt the need to bump that.

34 posted on 12/13/2001 1:20:33 PM PST by discostu
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To: discostu
But it just bugs the crap out of you that my wife and I use contraception, who's really got the problem here? Who's peaking in other people's windows? Who's trying to make rules for everybody for no defensable reason?

Personally, I don't care a wit what you or anybody does in your bedroom.

But when your contraceptives fail, as per SCOTUS, you (collectively, not you necessarily personally)demand abortion to clean up the failures.

That is when what you do in the bedroom does affect me, because the contraceptive mentality has necessitated legalization of abortion.

In other words, it affects me because a lifestyle choice has necessitated the underming of the US Constitution.

Abortion is not nor can it ever be Constitutional.

By making up this penumbra of a right to privacy out of thin air, SCOTUS undermined the Constitution.

Since the contraceptive mentality necessitated R v W, and R v W undermined my US Constitution, you better be damn sure I'm going to work to evangelize the culture, to turn back R v W.

Until this contraceptive mentality is replaced with the Christian mentality that held sway before it, abortion will never be defeated. I will not rest till abortion is defeated, for the blood of the innocents cries out to God for justice.

How many legions does the Pope have?

None.

The only power we have is the Truth. And I will not be silenced by your hysterical outcries. Contraception is mortal sin. Mortal sin permanently destroys one's relationship with God, when done with full knowledge and consent of the will, and therefore the punishment for mortal sin is eternal death.

Not as long as babies are killed in that place that should be a safe refuge, not as long as a blind culture blythely commits mortal sin with no herald to call them back, not as long as otherwise decent people make such foolish comments as yours, shall I remain silent.

35 posted on 12/13/2001 2:09:52 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: discostu
First, I am not posting directly to anyone here. I haven't found a way yet to post a thought without replying to another. With that out of the way...

I don't see a problem with a married couple using birth control. We use it ourselves. I think the question here should be the form of birth control.

An IUD is nothing more than a device which causes spontaneous abortion after an egg is fertilized. In essence, what an IUD is is a built in abortion. It does nothing to prevent pregnancy. What it does is save the woman from the trip to the clinic. I've never figured out why it was wrong for a woman to go to a clinic for an abortion after the fact yet it's perfectly fine for a woman to have something inserted into her body which would also result in an abortion after the fact.

Also, pills and shots are mostly to prevent pregnancy, BUT should that fail, there is an abortificant in it to cause a miscarriage. What is the difference between that and the morning after pill??? It's a lower dose built in morning after pill. You take RU486 and you're suppose to loose your baby. You take birth control pills and hopefully they'll prevent pregnancy BUT if they don't you're suppose to loose your baby. Again, the only difference is in the woman who wants a morning after pill has to go to the clinic whereas the woman on the pill takes hers every morning.

Now if a married couple wants to use spermicides, condoms, diaphrams, female condoms, or any other form of birth control whose purpose is to prevent pregnancy but doesn't kill a baby if they fail, well, that's different.

My husband and I have five children and three miscarriages and use birth control to prevent pregnancy (all of our pregnancies were planned except one). We do not use birth control that would kill our child should we make one.

I find it difficult to swallow that the same people who are so opposed to open abortion have no problem with the IUD or the abortificant found in birth control pills.


36 posted on 12/13/2001 2:09:58 PM PST by Mary Bear
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To: proud2bRC
I don't see how the contraceptive mentality leads to abortion. I think that's a huge leap that makes little if any sense. Of course one of the big reasons I think that is the women I know in my age group. I've known 5 that got pregnant, 3 were on the pill when it happened and kept the babies, the one that got an abortion didn't use any form of contraceptive (the 5th was no pill and kept baby). To me this boils down to thinking everybody thinks like you. Maybe how you approach it if you were to use contraceptives that would be such a far leap from your moral beliefs that abortion would be a given. For most folks it's not. A lot of the women I know that are on the pill use it more for regularity than to stop pregnancy (as well as it being nice to schedule pregnancies scheduling "that time of the month" has also proven very liberating to women); actually if you know what you're doing the pill can be a tool to help a woman get pregnant, because it forces ovulation to happen at a known time (roughly known anyway). Most of the arbotificient data on the pill is really old, the modern day of the pill uses MUCH less of the hormones than the older ones and the body is much more capable of routing around the pill.

BTW, even though I am basically pro-choice (I have to qualify that because the chearleaders of pro-choice are SO whacky that I can't support them, they take it WAY too far) I am in full agreement on RvW, hands down one of the worst decisions ever written by SCOTUS. The whole penumbra right concept is heinous, and worse doesn't make sense in relation to the issue (I'm not convinced that something involving two potential parents (I am with the crowd that says both should be involved in the descision) a doctor and at least one nurse is "private"; if these same people were discussing bank robery we'd call it "conspiracy"). I actually would like to see the decision overturned and let's start this over from scratch, even if my side loses in the end, anything is better than having penumbras in the constitution. But you'll never be able to touch contraception and you shouldn't.

I don't believe in gateway drugs (not even back when I was a doper) and I sure don't believe in gateway birthcontrol. And people like you and the author can rattle on all day if you wish but my position will continue to be that you're wrong. Your position is both nonsensicle and unprovable.

37 posted on 12/13/2001 2:38:53 PM PST by discostu
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To: Mary Bear; discostu
You can edit the To line to make a reply to All or to ping other people on to a thread, notice I added myself to the to line.

I'm not familiar with IUDs and frankly while we're discussing things in America there's no reason to mention them. Thanks to toxicshock syndrome in the first version of IUDs the AMA won't even consider model 2 so what's the point. As for the pill the aboritificant properties are grossly overblown from the old days. They never actually had anything in them that caused abortions, they had (emphasis on the past tense, almost none of the modern day ones have this and Dr.s will only prescribe the old style under very limited medical conditions) a hormone that caused the period. The modern ones don't, they have 21 days of stuff to prevent ovulation, then comes iron (and not all models have iron pills, there are 21 and 28 day versions). The infamous brown pills (the final 7 ni most 28 day prescriptions) are basically just placiboes with some iron suppliment thrown in, really all they do is keep the woman taking the pills every day (note I have no idea how the long term injections work, the only women I know that tried it got major rashes and had them removed).

The only real danger most birth control pills is if the pregnancy goes undetected for too long. The active pills are high in some vitamin (A I think, I'd have to look it up) that's very dangerous to fetuses in the 3rd and 4th months (OBs generally are thinking that most birth defects are caused by too much of this). But this is only really a problem if it goes undetected to the third month (which is pretty unlikely but can happen to women that have irregular ovulations) and the woman remains on the pill. BTW most of this is laid out in the warning packet that comes with the pill, it shouldn't be news to anybody.

38 posted on 12/13/2001 2:49:09 PM PST by discostu
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To: discostu
Two parents.
39 posted on 12/13/2001 3:17:41 PM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: proud2bRC
BUMP
40 posted on 12/13/2001 3:19:28 PM PST by Dr. Octagon
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