Rethinking software bloat.

Information week.com ^ | 12/17/01 | Fred Langa

[fnord]

not necessarily anti-MS. ALL code becomes bloated in time - creeping featuritis, bells and whistles, cross-platform and hardware issues. I'm bumping to check out the Assembly language links for later :-)

[ctdonath2]

(Typed faster than I think...)

They're not selling new machines at 1/10th the price because people don't want them. It's been tried. People want to play Napstered .MP3s and watch the latest LotR trailers and play Final Fantasy X. There isn't an adequate market for cheap machines running at a ten-year-old performance level. Moreso, there is a critical mass for productivity (CPU, keyboard, monitor, ...), and raising that productivity level by 10 costs far less than 10x the critical-mass cost: 1/10th the performance costs roughly 1/2 the price to make, so why not pay just twice as much to get ten times the performance? The extra power is only a fraction of the total cost; the machine still costs the same to assemble, advertise & ship.

[Fiddlstix]

Bump

[ctdonath2]

Remember, you can't write evil without vi.

[lelio]

But the same "Hello, World" program written in Visual C++ takes fully 10,369 bytes--that's 25 times as much code!
So 25x of the code bloat is something that I can't even control?

[CubicleGuy]

I still use (extensively) a DOS program called T/Master which does database, spreadsheets, word processing, telecommunications (async telecom stuff that has become largely irrelevant in the face of the Internet), graphing and the like. In fact, I believe that I owe a lot of the success I've had as a mainframe programmer/analyst to the ability of this tool to enable me to do stuff (analysis of test results, summarization of data, etc.) on my PC that I'd have to write mainframe programs to do if I didn't have it. It's not sold or maintained any more, and it's got some minor Y2K flaws, but it's still darn helpful. I only use Microsoft Word and Excel when I absolutely have to.

[RogueIsland]

What do you think are the real reasons for "Bloatware"

Shhh. It's good for my Intel stock.

[Johnny Crab]

As mentioned to me by someone experienced with "downsizing code to fit in space program computers": "Dad, programmers now are just lazy because they CAN be. Fast processors + tons of CHEAP memory = no motivation to write efficient code". Much different from when Dad did machine language for MC6800 chip....

[Jefferson Adams]

Smaller is better. Every line of code has a finite chance of having a defect. Every defect has a finite chance of remaining undetected in the released product. Every released defect has a finite chance of causing unintended operation.

Yep. Well said.

[Smogger]

Blah blah blah.. I don't know what you cats are programming (or if you are programming at all) but todays software enviroment requires what we like to call Rapid Application Development (RAD). Which means we cannot sit around in a room tinkering in Assembly all day long working on one function. You want to know the reason why software is bloated? Because development in high level languages is 1000 times faster than development in lower level languages.

If you develop a fanstastic piece of software in 2 years using assembly and I develop a competing piece of software in overbloated VB, but I release my working program in 2 months guess who captures the market?

I don't know about the rest of you but the software I am developing requires RAD. It is much cheaper to throw some hardware at the problem after the fact then to pay dozens more programmers to sit around and write the app in aseembly (or in my case even C++).

[Bush2000]

Serious question for you. Do you sell or market Microsoft products ?

No. Nor do I have any desire to. ;-)

[Smogger]

Cool.. Yeah.. add me.

[ctdonath2]

See Smogger's reply #50. Yes, programmers don't bother tightening up code when there's gobs of cycles & bytes available - they also get the products out the door a lot faster, which is good for both customer and developer. At $1/GB and $1/MHz, I'm more interested in performance than efficiency.

[damnlimey]

OK, More grist for the mill,why is this necessary
Taken from Bloatbusters.org

Sorry to include all this crap but sometimes the site is hard to access.

Outlook Express

Findings of the Tribunal:

Anyone dumb enough to be caught using this shitty application deserves it.

But what is perhaps not known is how badly OE trashes your Registry. It would seem the scoundrel re-registers 107 (one hundred seven) nasty Registry keys every time on startup. Following is a REGINST resource found inside the proprietary DLL.

[version]
Signature="$CHICAGO$"
[Reg]
AddReg=Msoe.Reg
[UnReg]
DelReg=Msoe.Reg
[Msoe.Reg]
HKLM,"Software\Clients\Mail\Outlook Express","DLLPath",131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKLM,"Software\Clients\News\Outlook Express","DLLPath",131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{8F0C5675-AEEF-11d0-84F0-00C04FD43F8F}",,,"AthWafer"
HKCR,"CLSID\{8F0C5675-AEEF-11d0-84F0-00C04FD43F8F}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{8F0C5675-AEEF-11d0-84F0-00C04FD43F8F}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{E70C92A9-4BFD-11d1-8A95-00C04FB951F3}",,,"CLSID_StoreNamespace"
HKCR,"CLSID\{E70C92A9-4BFD-11d1-8A95-00C04FB951F3}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{E70C92A9-4BFD-11d1-8A95-00C04FB951F3}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{101A8FB9-F1B9-11d1-9A56-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_MessageStore"
HKCR,"CLSID\{101A8FB9-F1B9-11d1-9A56-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{101A8FB9-F1B9-11d1-9A56-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{BE09F473-7FEB-11d2-9962-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_MigrateMessageStore"
HKCR,"CLSID\{BE09F473-7FEB-11d2-9962-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{BE09F473-7FEB-11d2-9962-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{946395D0-0027-11d2-AAB0-006097D474C4}",,,"CLSID_StoreSync"
HKCR,"CLSID\{946395D0-0027-11d2-AAB0-006097D474C4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{946395D0-0027-11d2-AAB0-006097D474C4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{B4B796A9-EC1C-11d1-9A54-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_MessageTable"
HKCR,"CLSID\{B4B796A9-EC1C-11d1-9A54-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{B4B796A9-EC1C-11d1-9A54-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152555-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_LocalStore"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152555-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152555-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152556-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_NewsStore"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152556-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152556-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152557-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_HTTPMailStore"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152557-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152557-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152558-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_IMAPStore"
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152558-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{59152558-EE8D-11d1-9A55-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{6F74FDC5-E366-11d1-9A4E-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_MessageDatabase"
HKCR,"CLSID\{6F74FDC5-E366-11d1-9A4E-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{6F74FDC5-E366-11d1-9A4E-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{6F74FDC6-E366-11d1-9A4E-00C04FA309D4}",,,"CLSID_FolderDatabase"
HKCR,"CLSID\{6F74FDC6-E366-11d1-9A4E-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{6F74FDC6-E366-11d1-9A4E-00C04FA309D4}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{CAE80521-F685-11d1-AF32-00C04FA31B90}",,,"CLSID_OENote"
HKCR,"CLSID\{CAE80521-F685-11d1-AF32-00C04FA31B90}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{CAE80521-F685-11d1-AF32-00C04FA31B90}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"CLSID\{626BAFE1-E5D6-11D1-B1DD-006097D503D9}",,,"CLSID_OERulesManager"
HKCR,"CLSID\{626BAFE1-E5D6-11D1-B1DD-006097D503D9}\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\{626BAFE1-E5D6-11D1-B1DD-006097D503D9}\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Both"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.MessageList",,,"Outlook Express Message List"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.MessageList\CLSID",,,%OEMsgList_GUID%
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.MessageList\CurVer",,,"OutlookExpress.MessageList.1"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.MessageList.1",,,"Outlook Express Message List"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.MessageList.1\CLSID",,,%OEMsgList_GUID%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%",,,"Outlook Express Message List"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\DefaultIcon",,,%SYS_MOD_PATH%",2"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\InprocServer32",,,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Apartment"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\NotInsertable"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\MiscStatus",,,"0"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\MiscStatus\1",,,"131473"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\Programmable"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\ProgID",,,"OutlookExpress.MessageList.1"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\TypeLib",,,"{233A9691-667E-11d1-9DFB-006097D50408}"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\VersionIndependentProgID",,,"OutlookExpress.MessageList"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\Version",,,"1.0"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{40FC6ED3-2438-11CF-A3DB-080036F12502}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{40FC6ED4-2438-11CF-A3DB-080036F12502}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{7DD95801-9882-11CF-9FA9-00AA006C42C4}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgList_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{7DD95802-9882-11CF-9FA9-00AA006C42C4}",,,,
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook",,,"Outlook Express Address Book"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook\CLSID",,,%OEBuddyList_GUID%
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook\CurVer",,,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook.1"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook.1",,,"Outlook Express Address Book"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook.1\CLSID",,,%OEBuddyList_GUID%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%",,,"Outlook Express Address Book"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\DefaultIcon",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%",2"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Apartment"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\NotInsertable"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\MiscStatus",,,"0"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\MiscStatus\1",,,"131473"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\ProgID",,,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook.1"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEBuddyList_GUID%\VersionIndependentProgID",,,"OutlookExpress.AddressBook"
HKLM,"Software\Microsoft\WAB\WAB4\ExtDisplay\MailUser"
HKLM,"Software\Microsoft\WAB\WAB4\ExtDisplay\MailUser",%OEBuddyList_GUID%,,"1"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.Envelope",,,"Outlook Express Envelope"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.Envelope\CLSID",,,%OEEnvelope_GUID%
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.Envelope\CurVer",,,"OutlookExpress.Envelope.1"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.Envelope.1",,,"Outlook Express Envelope"
HKCR,"OutlookExpress.Envelope.1\CLSID",,,%OEEnvelope_GUID%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEEnvelope_GUID%",,,"Outlook Express Envelope"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEEnvelope_GUID%\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEEnvelope_GUID%\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Apartment"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEEnvelope_GUID%\ProgID",,,"OutlookExpress.Envelope.1"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEEnvelope_GUID%\VersionIndependentProgID",,,"OutlookExpress.Envelope"
HKLM,"%KEY_MAILCLIENT%\%KEY_OUTLOOK%\Envelope\CLSID",,,"%OEEnvelope_GUID%"
HKLM,"%KEY_MAILCLIENT%\%KEY_OUTLOOK%\Envelope\CurVer",,,"OutlookExpress.Envelope.1"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%",,,"Outlook Express Mail Object"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Apartment"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{40FC6ED3-2438-11CF-A3DB-080036F12502}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{40FC6ED4-2438-11CF-A3DB-080036F12502}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{7DD95801-9882-11CF-9FA9-00AA006C42C4}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMail_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{7DD95802-9882-11CF-9FA9-00AA006C42C4}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%",,,"Outlook Express MsgTable Object"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%\InprocServer32",,131072,%SYS_MOD_PATH%
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%\InprocServer32","ThreadingModel",,"Apartment"
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{40FC6ED3-2438-11CF-A3DB-080036F12502}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{40FC6ED4-2438-11CF-A3DB-080036F12502}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{7DD95801-9882-11CF-9FA9-00AA006C42C4}",,,,
HKCR,"CLSID\%OEMsgTable_GUID%\Implemented Categories\{7DD95802-9882-11CF-9FA9-00AA006C42C4}",,,,
[Strings]
OEMsgList_GUID          =   "{233A9692-667E-11d1-9DFB-006097D50408}"
OEBAWabExt_GUID         =   "{233A9694-667E-11d1-9DFB-006097D50408}"
OEBuddyList_GUID        =   "{233A9694-667E-11d1-9DFB-006097D50408}"
OEEnvelope_GUID         =   "{A08AF898-C2A3-11d1-BE23-00C04FA31009}"
OEMail_GUID             =   "{06BE7323-EF34-11d1-ACD8-00C04FA31009}"
OEMsgTable_GUID         =   "{abc00000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}"
OEOneStopHandler_GUID   =   "{D2984AB4-F2DE-11d1-AF07-00C04FA35D02}"
KEY_MAILCLIENT          =   "Software\Clients\Mail"
KEY_OUTLOOK             =   "Outlook Express"
[End]

 

[Publius6961]

This article is tripe. The fact of the matter is that hardware prices are constantly declining as products are replaced with better technology, so the cost per megabyte/gigabyte of storage is far, far less than in previous years. And frankly, it's unrealistic to think that Moore's Law applies to hardware. As hardware capabilities increase so, too, does software. And, really, when you're talking about less than 50 cents per megabyte of RAM and $2.65 per gigabyte of hard disk space, you're left wondering why the author has anything to complain about.

What a wonderful tapdance around the topic of this tread.
Flying monkey school teaches you to totally change the subject from bloated software to hardware?
And then dazzle 'em with BS and technobabble further to distract the fact that you're off subject?

[bwteim]

What do you think are the real reasons for "Bloatware"

It's not the surplus of disk space or increased hardware performance. It has everything to do with Programming Design or the lack of it. This lack is a result of:

• Poor programming instruction (or insufficient self-teaching) leading to...
• bad coding practices;
• coupled by inadequate supervision/management of those responsible for 'systems' of their own programming staff and accompanied by...
• inadequate programming standards (such as permitting no documentation, no modular thinking, no shared libraries/resources)...
• rush deadlines agreed to by managers causing their programming staff to have to take short cuts and either produce inadequate documentation or eliminate documentation;
• The operating environment as in the 'shop itself'. For example, high programmer turnover and its impact on somebody having to go behind and decode spaghetti.
• How about managers hired to supervise programmers who themselves have never written a line?

And in the end, a shop that does not have standards and agrees to insane deadlines for their coders ends up with..... Bloatware - or worse, Crap Bloatware.

fnord notes that bloatware also is caused by featuritis or feature creep. This is often so in cases where there are no standards. A shop with proper programming standards and realistic timelines would allow permit such features within a decipherable program.

Bush2000 noted: "This article is tripe."

Good data processing managers/systems analysts would disagree with you.

FYI, Bush2000, MS/Windows does not have the franchise on Bloatware....

[TexRef]

They're not selling new machines at 1/10th the price because people don't want them.

Sure they are -- you just aren't looking in the right places... You can purchase a PC and monitor today for about $150. Of course, it will be a 486 or slow Pentium, but you could get one.

I don't understand the "technology gap" that liberals keep talking about... You don't have to have the latest and greatest to start to learn about technology. There is not a family in America that couldn't afford some sort of computer -- and free Internet access to boot!

[ArGee]

More fodder for all the MS haters out there,but it does raise an interesting question.What do you think are the real reasons for "Bloatware"

Precisely 2:

1. People will buy it and
2. Hardware is cheaper than programmer time.

Shalom.

[TexRef]

Who needs the super iron? I see two classes of users, and for one class, the term "need" is applied in the loosest of all possible senses. The two classes are "gamers", and "network admins".

You forgot one: Developers.

Right now I'm sitting at work running W2K with Outlook, PalmPilot Desktop, about 8 sessions of SAP, another development program, Paint Shop Pro, Multi-Edit, another half-dozen windows of Internet Explorer, and VNC (Virtual Networking Computer -- controling my other laptop)... Of course, other programs, such as eFax and WebDrive are sitting in the "tray" ready to go when I am...

Do I need to run all these apps at the same time?

Well, yes.

(BTW, my office issued laptop runs W95 which crashes if I run a TENTH of what I have open on my laptop with W2K)

[tarpon_bill]

One of the big problems is that MS has decided that a lot of unnecessary junk is run in the background so if you ever need it you have it running. and running. and running. and

A big cure for bloatware would be to make this crap go away in the base install and allow the user to pick and choose what you want to run. I cut down all the unnecessary crap by removing it from the start-up files. It is still there if I need the function but I don't get it by default.

To see this it action just install IE and see what level of 'neat' useless sites are stuck all through your bookmarks and tool bar windows.

this is where your cpu cycles go. Agreed storage and memory are almost free, but cpu cycles are a still limited commodity.

snooker