Untangling Evolution (A *MUST* Read)

First Things ^ | Stephen M. Barr

[PatrickHenry]

Have you ever read the statements in reverence of evolution? The "Infinite wisdom" of evolution? The "Grand design" of evolution? The "Mother Earth" BS? It IS a religion. Just as much a religion as Protestantism, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Wicca, New Age, Buddhism, Taoism, Communism (Yes, it is a religion. It espouses itself as the end all of everything.)

I have no idea what you're talking about. It certainly isn't evolution. You might find it instructive to read a text on the subject -- not a rant written by some ignorant gadfly, but a book written by a biologist for the purpose of introducing the topic to the public. There are hundreds that will do the job. Then at least you'll understand that evolution is a well-grounded biological phenomenon, not a cult of mystics.

[Darksheare]

That Was written by a prominant evolutionist. Go check.

[Aric2000]

The law of Thermodynamics somehow kills the theory of Evolution? What turnip truck did you fall off of?

There is energy, eg: the SUN!! The law of thermodynamics is not at all broken by the theory of Evolution, and whomever told you it did, was either ignorant or a liar.

There is energy coming to earth ALL the time, The plants create thier own food with it, which is then food for animals, which is then food for carnivores, it all starts with the SUN..... That is where the energy for life comes from, no entropy there, it is always replenished.

How is the law of Thermodynamics broken by the theory of evolution, I really really want to know!!

[Aric2000]

Oh geez, here we go with the "it cheapens life" deal.

Sorry, to me if we are an accident, then it makes life that much more precious, because if we destroy ourselves now, no matter, god will just start over again and build a new world. But what if it is indeed a cosmic accident? What if we are truly unique in the universe, what if life only evolves on 1 out of a million worlds, and our civilization is 1 out of a Billion that actually exist. It tells me that we are even more precious then we were before, it is our responsibility to survive and prosper.

Evolution does not cheapen life, on the contrary, it makes it even more precious.

[longshadow]

As for insulting people, Go back and read some of the "Learned" responses from your ameoba worshipping bretheren.

Your wish is my command:

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Fact is: You don't know squat about thermodynamics. All biological systems are endothermic. Ipso facto all living things are at the bottom end of an enthalpy gradient. This is consistent with the fact that most people believe the sun exists (the high end of the enthalpy gradient).

I get tired of repeating it, and nobody ever refutes it, but thermodynamics allows for local decreases in entropy if the total entropy of the system increases. Biological organisms are examples of decreases in entropy. Massive quantities of enthalpy are expended to reverse entropy (as allowed in thermodynamics) and enormous quantities of entropy are created in the enthalpy transfer. So what is so hard to understand?

And a little more food for thought: If thermodynamics precludes the possibility of evolution, then it also precludes the existence of things such as diamonds, which are also local reversals of entropy by the massive expenditure of enthalpy. Do you believe diamonds exist?

81 posted on 1/1/02 4:15 PM Pacific by tortoise

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That was a concise, well-explained quote from one of my fellow "ameoba worshipers," to which you have yet to respond, yet you somehow find the time to throw around remarks like this:

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Got it? Or is reading too hard for you? Or is comprehension something beyond you? Fact is: Thermodynamics is at odds with evolution. Don't like it? Tough.

79 posted on 1/1/02 3:07 PM Pacific by Darksheare

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It is fairly clear who on this thread has been arguing facts and who has been throwing around insults in place of facts and logical argumentation. It is also fairly obvious which of us have actually studied Thermodynamics and who hasn't.

The operative term here is that you've been "exposed."

[PatrickHenry]

Me: "You might find it instructive to read a text on the subject -- not a rant written by some ignorant gadfly, but a book written by a biologist for the purpose of introducing the topic to the public. There are hundreds that will do the job. Then at least you'll understand that evolution is a well-grounded biological phenomenon, not a cult of mystics."

You: That Was written by a prominant evolutionist. Go check.

I assume that you don't intend to become informed on the subject. You may well understand, therefore, how much attention people will pay to your opinions.

[Darksheare]

Rule one: Find out what your position is. And find out what it says.
Rule two: To be truly scientific, admit what you don't know. Consider all evidence.
Rule three: Deny everything that goes against the accepted thoery.

[Darksheare]

All right. Is evolution a closed system or an open system? Think VERY hard before answering. And no, the sun doesn't add enough energy to earth to be a driving force in evolution. And that BS about entorpy reversing? Hmm.. tell that to the Twin Towers, maybe they'll miraculousy reappear? Right? Even blackholes evaporate in time. Ask Stephen Hawking. That is the biggest proof of entropy being the end result there is.

[Darksheare]

IS evolution an open system or a closed system?

[Mark Bahner]

"The Cambrian Explosion, that wild proliferation of new forms of life that occurred about 540 million years ago,..."

What the @#$% is this man talking about? Can't he read the Bible? The earth is only a little over 6000 years old!

He can't even read, and he calls himself a scientist! ;-)

[f.Christian]

Then at least you'll understand that evolution is a well-grounded biological phenomenon, not a cult of mystics.

101 posted on 1/6/02 5:41 PM Pacific by PatrickHenry

Well grounded---swamp gas-quicksand--body snatchers...

not a cult of mystics---misfits--freaks--zombies--intellectual amazons---frankenstiens!

Did you know B. F. Skinner raised his daughter in a box--she killed herself?

[Aric2000]

Poor Poor Darksheare,

You actually believe that Eveolution goes against the laws of Thermodynamics, WRONGO!!

And evolution I would have to say is an open system, because of the fact that the earth not only gains MASSIVE amounts of energy from the sun, but also loses some of that energy to space.

The suns energy and radiation are the DRIVING force for evolution, the radiation from the sun allows the changes in DNA which allow evolution, and some of those changes are kept via natural selection and those that do not work either die or are unable to live, again through natural selection.

There is more then enough energy from the sun to drive evolution.

ALL plants get thier energy from the sun, ALL PLANTS. Without that energy the earth would be a ball of lifeless dirt, without oxygen, created by plants, without animals, which are fed by the plants, etc etc, it is ALL started by the sun, the sun is the DRIVING force!! The plants literally create food from the suns energy. and without the plants to feed off of, animal life would not be able to exist.

So in a word, you're WRONG!!!

At some point in the far future, the law of thermodynamics will kick in for the sun and it will die, when that happens, we will die as well, unless we are already gone, but that will be 4 billion years in the future, so I am not exactly worried about it.

[KneelBeforeZod]

Yet another nail in the coffin of atheism.

Wow you're right! I'm like totally born again!

[sayfer bullets]

I'm not going to overthrow my own rationality and dive into superstition out of fear that an imaginary being will get me if I don't. How you can do that amazes me.

While I doubt the "you better do it quick" was a serious attempt to actually persuade you, your premise is faulty.

There is nothing superstitious about it. That anyone would be out to "get you", again, is not a serious point on your part. "Superstition", and "imaginary" are used to characature your opposition.

Not that you are interested, but what you scoff at is a gift rather than something to be earned.

The reactions to people of faith in these "crevo" threads gives me the mental picture of a man who's walked unknowingly into an invisible spiderweb. He gesticulates violently against something that can hardly hurt him, and makes himself look like a goofball in the process.

[KneelBeforeZod]

Name one thing anti-scientific about this post.

How about the entire passage comparing the appearance of "t" after "e" in words to creation? Does he have a corresponding example for chinese, which the greatest percentage of humans speaks? And if he did, which I doubt, so what?

[Mark Bahner]

"Evolution also forgets to take into account THERMODYNAMICS."

No, definitely not.

"To paraphrase, 'All complex systems degenerate into entropy.'"

No, the proper paraphrase is that the entropy in any CLOSED SYSTEM increases. The earth is not a closed system, since energy comes from the sun. It's the energy from the sun that allows complex systems to form on earth.

"How convenient to forget that, eh? Evolution states just the opposite, 'Entropy degenerates into complex systems.'"

Do you honestly think that we mechanical engineers would allow biologists to "forget" (disregard) the laws of thermodynamics? Not bloody likely!

"I've always thought this was an interesting question... no-one has ever seriously explained it away."

I just did. And literally thousands of people knowledgable about thermodynamics have tried to explain this simple fact (that earth isn't a closed system, so entropy on earth need not always increase) to folks like you, but y'all (Southern expression) simply aren't listening.

"And it is a religion."

No, evolution is a testable scientific theory.

If one BELIEVED in evolution, one would indeed need faith. But scientifically oriented people like me don't BELIEVE in evolution. We simply recognize it as by far the most compelling theory for why plants and animals look like they do...and, in a larger sense, have the DNA they have.