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Papers Please.

Come on, fork em over..

1 posted on 01/01/2002 9:13:35 AM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: Jhoffa_
You vill stand unt line and get on zee train.
2 posted on 01/01/2002 9:20:35 AM PST by orfisher
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To: Jhoffa_
Whenever I read an article like this the point is always made with comparisons to Nazi Germany. I have a question; How did the Soviet Union handle ID? Was there a national registry of names? Did they assign people jobs or housing based upon the information in their files? Why don't we ever hear about Soviet policies regarding personal ID?

Since the Soviet Union was still around as recently as 1989, it would seem that comparisions to that system would be much more timely and relevant than comparisons to a system that was crushed over fifty-five years ago.

5 posted on 01/01/2002 9:31:09 AM PST by Billy_bob_bob
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To: Jhoffa_
"Objectivist Center" put me off. But this is a well-considered, well-written, very sensible piece.

I don't know why Bush would even give Larry Ellison the time of day. The man is a big-time clintonoid of the worst kind. The last thing we need is to feed his wallet.

6 posted on 01/01/2002 9:33:45 AM PST by Cicero
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To: Jhoffa_
Oops. Posted here with 212 comments.
9 posted on 01/01/2002 9:38:36 AM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: Jhoffa_
to wearing of Groucho glasses and chemical defacing of fingerprints,

Give them the finger.


13 posted on 01/01/2002 9:45:48 AM PST by sam_paine
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To: patrioteagle911
BUMP!!!
18 posted on 01/01/2002 10:08:12 AM PST by DAGO
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To: Jhoffa_
This is a country of people who practically begged to have the PATRIOT Act passed. They'll gladly line up to get a National ID.
20 posted on 01/01/2002 10:14:35 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: Jhoffa_
And we thought slavery was ended! Oh I know; this is "affirmative action" slavery...everybody gets to be one.
21 posted on 01/01/2002 10:14:59 AM PST by sweetliberty
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To: Jhoffa_
Claire's site:

--Claire Wolfe's Wolfe Lodge-

30 posted on 01/01/2002 11:15:41 AM PST by backhoe
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To: Jhoffa_
I would support the following type of national biometric ID system, if and when the technology is reliable:

1) Nobody can be required to carry anything--just ain't constitutional, and gazillions of people would refuse, not to mention that any card is forgeable, so verification would always rest with some sort of computer database anyway.

2) A database would serve to distinguish citizens from non-citizens, and would consist ONLY of some reliable lifelong biometric record (possibly DNA) and an ID# for ease in locating/arranging the records. No name, no date of birth, absolutely no way for someone to use the database to identify individuals.

3) A phone line-based system, like the one now used for verifying credit cards, would enable anyone -- employers, airline security personnel, sellers of bulk ammonium nitrate, police, aviation schools, etc. -- to ascertain whether an individual's biometric is or is not in the database; i.e. to ascertain whether or not the individual is a citizen.

4) Absolute prohibition (with huge criminal penalties) on database searchers using a system which is capable of recording the biometric data (as that would enable matching of biometric data to other identifying information such as name, in transactions such as employment, or purchases by credit card or check, and thus enable the compiling of a identifying database of some portion of the citizenry).

5) Duplicate records would be held at the state level (state of birth or residence at naturalization, and at the individual's option state(s) of subsequent residence, and/or county of residence). This provides a check on federal meddling or incompetence in which individuals might either deliberately or accidentally be "de-citizenized", as it would be provided that any conflict between state and federal records is automatically ruled in favor of the individual.

This system would enable near-instantaneous confirmation of whether a person is or is not a citizen, without identifying the individual in question either to the questioner or to the maintainers of the database. This in turn would enable authorities and sensitive businesses to treat citizens and non-citizens differently, which it is currently impossible to do on a routine basis. If a person's citizenship can be determined quickly and non-intrusively, this would enable citizens to bypass closer scrutiny while applying higher standards of scrutiny to non-citizens. This wouldn't catch the Timothy McVeighs, but it would catch foreign terrorists, foreign drug runners, and illegal immigrants. It could also be helpful to citizens who look and/or sound "foreign", by providing a quick way to establish citizenship in situations where they may be suspected of being illegal immigrants, causing employers to fear hiring them, etc.

I see little point in even maintaining the concept of citizenship, if there's no practical way to determine who is or isn't one.

31 posted on 01/01/2002 11:33:49 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Jhoffa_;Cicero;cdwright;Billy_bob_bob;MadRobotArtist;Wolfie;sweetliberty;SuperLuminal;Arleigh...
Rather than respond to each post separately I decide to post to each of you in one response.

Would you do business with traitor John Walker?

Wake up! Stop playing by their rules.

But statements coming out of the White House have been non-committal -- of the “we‘re keeping all options open“ variety.

In a world of law abiding citizens -- people that don't initiate force -- they have nothing to hide. The parasitical elite -- the most destructive users of the initiation of force, fraud and coercion -- have that to hide. They have to hide their true parasitical colors. They do it by an array of illusions. But illusions are just that. All illusions eventually collapse when the the spotlight of honesty and wide-scope accounting is shinned on them.

While past performance is not a guarantee of future performance, it is a ten times more likely to be an accurate gauge for what a politician will do than a politician that merely proclaims what he or she will do.

Make it mandatory that every politician show their government ID when purchasing any good or service. After all, we are their employer and they our employees. The People are the master.

The ostracism matrix database. A database that gives an objective rating of each politicians past performance. How often did the congressperson vote in favor of a law that violates the constitution or bill of rights? How often did the politician violate his or her oath of office to the people and the constitution? Each politician has a value destruction rating.

Just think what it could do to with the instant ability to monitor and cut off access to transportation or services for a variety of disobedient or “questionable“ people.

Picture this. A politician or bureaucrat is at the check out counter and must show his government employee ID. The sales clerk checks it against the ostracism database and says, "Sir, you have a triple AAA value destruction rating. Get out of here now. We don't sell to parasites or value destroyers."

Just as consumers rely heavily on the track record of past performance when they buy a car or chose a contractor to build a house even more scrutiny of past performance should be applied to electing politicians. The best track records of past performance are that of the businessman. Either they deliver as their track record shows or they get out-competed.

Value Destroyers versus Value Producers 

If civilization had to chose between business/science and government/bureaucracy, eliminating the other, which is the better choice?

The first thing civilization must have is business/science. It's what the family needs so that its members can live creative, productive, happy lives. Business/science can survive, even thrive without government/bureaucracy.

Government/bureaucracy cannot survive without business/science. In general, business/science and family is the host and government/bureaucracy is a parasite.

Aside from that, keep valid government services that protect individual rights and property. Military defense, FBI, CIA, police and courts. With the rest of government striped away those few valid services would be several fold more efficient and effective than they are today. 

Underwriters Laboratory is a private sector business that has to compete in a capitalist market. Underwriters laboratory is a good example of success where government fails.

Any government agency that is a value to the people and society could better serve the people by being in the private sector where competition demands maximum performance.

Wake up! We are the host. They are the parasites. We don't need them. They need us.

39 posted on 01/01/2002 1:08:57 PM PST by Zon
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To: Jhoffa_; SuperLuminal; PatrioticAmerican; GovernmentShrinker; Zon
Someone really should tell Claire that it is now later...MUCH LATER. And conduct themselves accordingly.
51 posted on 01/01/2002 2:20:06 PM PST by S.O.S121.500
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To: Jhoffa_
I do not worry much about abuse of a national id system with Bush and Ashcroft in charge. The Republican administration has been waging war against external forces, and not against Americans with different views as the Clintonistas and other Democrats have and will continue to do. Recall that the Clintonistas used tax records against those that disagreed with them. Think the unthinkable: that Bush's popularity declines after the war declines or ceases, like his father's did after the Gulf war, and that Hitlary Clintonista is elected president. I shudder to think how she would use a national id system and the Patriot Act. Does anyone on this thread doubt that she would use such and all means available to her to wage war against Americans who do not agree with her Marxist views of a bureaucratic, oppressive, socialist, paternalistic government that has no room for thoughts that are contrary to her views?
60 posted on 01/01/2002 6:03:53 PM PST by asacha
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To: Jhoffa_
I hate to tap you on the shoulder here but my line in the sand is back here behind you, vote fraud was my line in the sand, I found myself at a rally not really caring so much for the candidate as I did for the outrage of flagrant Democrat vote theft and the galling slap in the face to the armed forces.
66 posted on 01/01/2002 7:12:42 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Jhoffa_
Whats your social security number?
68 posted on 01/01/2002 11:35:01 PM PST by weikel
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To: Jhoffa_
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74 posted on 01/03/2002 6:08:13 PM PST by Bob J
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To: Jhoffa_
bttt
75 posted on 01/11/2002 3:15:20 PM PST by SuperLuminal
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