M1911 vs. M9

The Sight M1911-A1 ^ | unknown | unattributed

[Dawgsquat]

M1911vsM9

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M1911 vs. M9

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols.

It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

My Own Opinion:

The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy.

Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP.

My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear.

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course.

 

MORE BERETTA 92 LINKS

Beretta's Model 92FS Page

Beretta Info Page

Francesco's Unofficial Beretta Page

M9 Manual (PDF) from BiggerHammer

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This page was last updated on 12/13/01

[Dawgsquat]

Thought this might be of interest to gun enthusiasts. I've used several models of 1911-A1s since my Navy days where I won two marksmanship medals with one. I'm of the opinion that no better combat pistol was ever designed. Today I own a Charles Daly FS that I'm very pleased with. I prefer the 230 grain ball ammo for reasons of reliabilty.

[Dawgsquat]

Rats! The pics were there in the preview. What happened?

[Illbay]

And this is of scintillating interest to FReepers generally, exactly HOW?

[Chad Fairbanks]

9mm is fine for Europeans, but for dangerous people, ya need a .45 ;0)

[Dawgsquat]

Read my comments and look at the topic it was posted under.

[Euro-American Scum]

I've used several models of 1911-A1s since my Navy days where I won two marksmanship medals with one. I'm of the opinion that no better combat pistol was ever designed.

I'm with you on this one. And although I have since been won over by the Glock .45 caliber handguns, I still have a 1911 .45 in my collection and use it often.

I never got the rap that the recoil is a problem with a 1911. With practice and experience it can be controlled. And the level of marksmanship is not contstrained so much by the gun as the shooter.

As for the ever-eternal 9mm vs. 45 caliber war, I just prefer the .45. Call me crazy, but I find all that firepower very comforting.

[gnarledmaw]

Bang!

Will this question ever be settled?

[SERE_DOC]

BERETTA is a piece of crap, during a tour in Panama with NSWU8, we carried Sig 9mm, and refered to the Beretta as "jam-in-the-sand berettas'"

I use a H&K 9mm & Thompson 1911A1 PitBull 45.

[Redleg Duke]

Because many of us Freepers are not as intellectual or sophisticated as you obviously are.

The M1911A1 is a superb firearm and if one is properly trained to use it, should give superior service and performance. Adoption of the 9mm is a vestage of the NATO experience. In the thirty plus years I served, I never had a M1911A1 jam or misfire. I personally think it was a mistake to replace them.

[glock rocks]

[Dawgsquat]

I agree. Considering the weight difference between the Glock and the 1911-A1, is the recoil of the Glock a detriment to getting off a quick second shot? I've never fired the Glock in .45. How long is the barrel on yours?

[Dawgsquat]

Thanks friend!

[glock rocks]

. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition.

if i swap between 9 and .45 on the same day, i'll put the 9 all over the paper. however, if
i just shoot one or the other on a particular day, my scores are almost identical... also,
it helps to have a glock model 30 (.45) and model 26 (9mm) to swap between... almost
identical in the hand, trigger reach, etc... the 9 is overall smaller.

the only major difference i notice is my recoil timing for the double-tap... but... practice practice practice.

[RogueIsland]

Pretty concise, accurate article devoid of the usual John-Moses-Browning-Is-God chest thumping. I own examples of both breeds. Both are excellent pistols -- the Beretta is far easier to take down in the field, feeds virtually flawlessly, and the manual of arms is simpler for green recruits to handle safely. The 1911 is easier to shoot accurately (IMHO), but they seem to have an unusual tendency for ammo sensitivity in tighter-tolerance specimens, perhaps because of the lack of a real feed ramp and inadequately designed mags (I understand the loose-tolerance GI ones were very reliable with ball, though). And Marshall and Sarnow not withstanding, I'll take .45 ACP over 9mm for stopping power every time.

The 9mm choice was made for both capacity and NATO standardization reasons. U.S. doctrine has tended toward smaller caliber, more rounds for several decades, for good or ill.

[Dawgsquat]

Amen to the "practice". My wife got a Taurus ported .38 snubbie. Although I'm proficient with my .45, I don't think I'll ever be very good with that "pea-shooter".

[RightWhale]

too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

The Armed Forces have more than nominal firearms training, and some training is with weapons even more powerful than the pistol, hard to imagine but true.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

'swhyI got the Mod 22 in .40 cal. More punch than the 9 mm but in the same package.

[Dawgsquat]

I concur about the feed ramp. I've had trouble with Hydro-Shock hollow points. I stay with the ball ammo. Was thinking of polishing the ramp to see if that helps.

[HadEnough]

I own a Kimber Gold Match 1911 .45 and a Glock 21. For IDPA/IPSC stock matches I shoot 185 grain Montana Gold HPs in front of 9.5 grains of AA5. They chrono right at 980 FPS.

The Glock is definitely softer to shoot, most likely due to the polymer frame absorbing some of the recoil. The Kimber is more accurate beyond 25 yards (which doesn't matter in IDPA matchs or most real life shootouts).

I have a drop-in match barrel and compensator for the Glock and that really helps reduce the recoil for this faster load. Follow up shots are easy with the comp'ed barrel in the Glock 21.

[glock rocks]

And although I have since been won over by the Glock .45 caliber handguns, I still have a 1911 .45 in my collection and use it often.

Pete-R-Bilt let me shoot his Kimber Ultra Carry a couple weekends ago... good deal more
kick than the G30, but every bit as accurate. smoother than silk trigger, super fine finish. excellent.