Americans to Get More Ethanol in Gas

TBO.com ^ | 3/9/02 | JOSEF HEBERT

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

What kind of solution is increased ethanol?

[edger]

Isn't it true that more BTUs of energy are required to make ethanol than are gained in burning ethanol? And isn't it true that engines with computer controlled fuel mixture (all those manufactured since about 1987)are no cleaner when burning gasolines with MTBE or ethanol?

And we know it is true that when CAFEs go up, more gasoline is burned because driving is more economical than other means of transportation.

We must try to remember that it makes no difference how fast we are going if we are going down the wrong road.

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

Rats drive both ways on one way streets.

[Free the USA]

Check the Bump List folders for articles related to and descriptions of the above topic(s) or for other topics of interest.

[roachie]

Isn't it true that more BTUs of energy are required to make ethanol than are gained in burning ethanol? And isn't it true that engines with computer controlled fuel mixture (all those manufactured since about 1987)are no cleaner when burning gasolines with MTBE or ethanol?

yeah, something like that. It requires twice as much alcohol than gasoline to produce the same amount of power. Therefore, what's the point, when fuel economy will suffer? The emissions problem is the biggest bunch of bunk ever devised, because the only polluters are cars with incorrect tune up- that's where "unburned hydrocarbons" come in. Methanol/ethanol is cleaner than gasoline, but not by much given the fact we now have individual cylinder injection and adaptive spark controls. Alcohol wrecks havoc with the fuel systems and is a public nuisance because the burning of alcohol creates an odor of unexplanable variety.

[Free the USA]

I also understand that adding Ethanol lowers the fuel economy so you end up buying more ethanol diluted gallons of gas to drive the same distance.

[John Jamieson]

You don't understand. Even though it takes more than a gallon of desiel fuel to make a gallon (Btu equivalent) of ethanol. Pollution is reduced because farm machinery has no pollution requirements. Clear?

[razorback-bert]

Theoretically, the maximum conversion efficiency of glucose to ethanol is 51 percent on a weight basis. However, some glucose is used by the yeast for the production of cell mass and for metabolic products other than ethanol. In practice, between 40 and 48 percent of glucose is converted to ethanol. With a 45-percent fermentation efficiency, 1,000 kilograms of fermentable sugar produce about 570 liters of pure ethanol. Conversely, about 1,800 kilograms of fermentable sugar are required to produce 1,000 liters of ethanol. Mash typically contains between 50 and 100 grams of ethanol per liter (5 to 10 percent weight per volume) when fermentation is complete

See more here

[Wphile]

Interesting that Feinstein seems concerned about an "environmental" mandate. Californians are such frickin' hypocrites. They force all these regulations down our throats, refuse to provide for their own energy, and then ask for exemptions that they impose on the rest of the nation. They are the epitome of the NIMBY and 'it doesn't apply to me' crowd.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

Since ethanol produces far less power than gasoline when burned, horsepower (and gas mileage) will be adversely affected. Also, in very cold climates (like Alaska, where I live) adding ethanol to the gas increases the possibility of water condensing in the tank and freezing in the fuel line.

But it's good for the big agribusiness interests, so in it goes!

[ikka]

I also understand that adding Ethanol lowers the fuel economy so you end up buying more ethanol diluted gallons of gas to drive the same distance.

In other words, it is an automatic tax increase on gasoline, since in order to drive the same distance you have to buy more gas and pay more taxes.

[balrog666]

With a 45-percent fermentation efficiency, 1,000 kilograms of fermentable sugar produce about 570 liters of pure ethanol.

No, it produces thousands of liters of messy, smelly mash which, if adequately refined, may yield some 570 liters of ethanol. The problem is that the refinement takes a great deal of energy and the more pure you want it, the more it costs.

[supercat]

Methanol/ethanol is cleaner than gasoline, but not by much given the fact we now have individual cylinder injection and adaptive spark controls.

In an engine with no catalytic convertor or electronic controls, adding ethanol to gasoline will make it burn much cleaner with only slight impact on fuel economy. Unfortunately, in cars with catalytic convertors and electronic engine controls, the fuel economy hit is worse than in a 'simple' engine and yet the pollution benefit is nonexistent since the engine control has to adjust the fuel/air mix to produce enough unburned hydrocarbons to feed the catalytic convertor.

It may be that use of proper gasoline additives would allow a car to burn as clean without a catalytic convertor as cars with normal gasoline do with one, but even if that were true the odds of the government letting people nix the catalytic convertor (thus gaining some fuel economy) are essentially nil.

Of course, it's interesting to note that the biggest place where these reformulated gasolines would usefully reduce emissions (i.e. farm equipment) is just about the one place their use isn't mandated.

[Jesse]

What kind of solution is increased ethanol?

Depends on the problem. As far as a solution for pollution, or increasing energy supplies, it is no solution at all.

If you are a Senator or Congressional Representative from a corn-growing state, it is a great solution to get more campaign contributions.

For Archer-Daniels-Midland, the company which is reaping hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in profits from this scam, it is a great solution to a potential cash flow or income problem.

You may have made the mistake of logically concluding ethanol is worse than a waste of time and resources, and therefore wondered what kind of solution this was. The idea that gasoline needs some kind of "oxygenator" to clean up emissions is bogus.

Now that you know what the real "problem" was, the "solution" is obvious.

Reminds me of the joke about Sherlock Holmes and Watson on a camping trip. In the middle of the night, Holmes wakes up Watson and asks him to look up at the brilliant starry sky and tell him what he thinks. Watson waxes eloquently about the vastness of the universe and unknown, uncounted worlds out there possibly with intelligent life.

Holmes interrupts him and says "No, Watson, you idiot. Someone stole our tent."

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

What about the 94 different formulas?

[mamelukesabre]

The arguements that ethanol is better for the environment or that it is a better fuel are absolute bunk. Ethanol is absolutely and inferior source of energy compared to oil.

The only advantage that I see is that a fuel that comes from a combination of sources would have a more stable market price. The gasoline at the service pump should be a mixture of several different sources, regardless if one of those sources is more economical than the others.

A certain percentage of our gasoline should be from:

1)the middle east
2)non middle east import
3)domestic
4)bio-fuel.
These 4 sources should be represented in every gallon of gasoline pumped from every filling station pumped in america. This would lessen the risk of a fuel shortage or price spikes.

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

Why are the Rats unconcerned with the remainder of the world which burns and drills for the same oil we import?

[mamelukesabre]

The "rats" being environmentalists?

I view these attacks on american energy consumption as just that. They would attack america for any reason they can think of. America's energy consumption is just an excuse. If it didn't exist, they would find something else.

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

What do you think about the idea of the Rats weakening our system to the point where government would control? From there government would take-over American drilling recourses and control the market.

[Iowa Granny]

The REAL point here is the one about phasing out MTBE's. MTBE is a known carcinagen. As we drive more and more the emisions from MTBE laced fuels settle onto the ground and eventually find their way to the water supply.

I find it especially interesting that Californians are not concerned about their water if it means increased fuel prices. Ethanol can be produced from any sugar based substance,,, corn is readily available in the midwest and there are many small refineries cropping up there. Blemished fruit could just as easiliy be used to produce Ethanol in California.