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Iran-Contra Questions
nathlim

Posted on 03/21/2002 7:56:06 PM PST by Benny3740

I have a lefty classmate who has the following thesis :

  1. Oliver North brokered back-channel deals with unsavory principals as the representative of the US Government. Israel was willing to go along because this had the government's implicit backing. The White House was acting in specific and intentional contravention of laws passed explicitly with the purpose of preventing the White House from doing exactly what it was doing. This makes North a criminal and by implication -- Ronald Reagan and all the staff that supported this operation.

  2. The Reagan White House helped the Irananians perpetuate their belief that hostage-taking could be profitable and that the US had no spine. We had better luck in Bosnia, when we defied Milosevic in his hostage-taking. No deals there, and we got our hostages back without compromising our morals or appearing weak to our enemies.

  3. Oliver North and his bosses did untold damage to America's credibility, did business with people we should have been hunting down, caved in to unsavory powers, and undermined our moral standing in the world.

  4. And what did we get in return? A few hostages that probably would have been released anyway, zero diplomatic progress with the Iranians (except the kidnappers), and the collapse of a rotten government, the Sandinistas, already in its dying throes.

  5. By doing what he did, North opened up and encouraged every rogue nation on the face of the earth to take more American hostages because they will get their demands the way the Iranians did.

  6. Reagan was lying when he said he was not privy to the covert operations of Oliver North.

    What say you to this thesis ?



TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: irancontra
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1 posted on 03/21/2002 7:56:06 PM PST by Benny3740
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To: Benny3740
I would say that Ronald Reagan didn't know what was going on during Iran-Contra. He was already suffering from the effects of Alzheimers.

As for Oliver North, he should have never been pardoned. Ask your friend about Barry Seal and Oliver North. Ask him if he has ever heard of Mena, Arkansas. Ask him if he knows about the deaths of Don Henry and Kevin Ives. Also, ask him if he has ever read Oliver North's declassified noteobooks.

2 posted on 03/21/2002 8:00:03 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Scholastic
Mena Ping!
3 posted on 03/21/2002 8:04:47 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Benny3740
Those who ran the underground railroad and hid Ann Frank were also criminals. Sometimes you need to break the law to do the right thing. --MM
4 posted on 03/21/2002 8:05:31 PM PST by mustapha mond
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To: Benny3740
I would say there's a lot of truth there, except that Saint Reagan never sinned.
5 posted on 03/21/2002 8:05:50 PM PST by Belial
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To: mustapha mond
Sometimes you need to break the law to do the right thing.

Unfortunately, the "right thing" to do is subjective. That's one of the main reasons we have laws.
6 posted on 03/21/2002 8:07:25 PM PST by Belial
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To: mustapha mond
Hmmm...does this include shipping illegal drugs around the country?
7 posted on 03/21/2002 8:12:37 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Benny3740
What say you to this thesis ?

That you haven't a clue as to geopolitic and wondering how you sat on your screen name for a whole year.

8 posted on 03/21/2002 8:17:41 PM PST by eddie willers
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To: Benny3740
Ask your friend what a snake, weasel, T.C., sparkplug, and a Hammer, have in common. Consider this, your riddle of the day.
9 posted on 03/21/2002 8:25:56 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Benny3740
Your friends thesis: As usual there is no point. No logic. No reason. No sources. Just bla bla bla Reagan was a criminal..bla bla bla..Oliver North did some bad things bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla....
10 posted on 03/21/2002 8:29:06 PM PST by Ajnin
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To: Benny3740
You should probably ask your friend why he didn't include Bill Clinton in this respected Iran-Contra list. After all, there was a contra training base in Arkansas.
11 posted on 03/21/2002 8:29:42 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Benny3740
You might consider that there are always two sides of every story. Many of us consider North to be a hero of the highest order.

How come you left out North's participation in the capture of the terrorists who took over the Kili Lauro (sp)? I should think that the North/US response to the terrorists i.e. capturing them in less than 24 hours, would and did put the fear of God into terrorists everywhere.

I also note that your post never considers traits like patriotism, integrity, guts, and character which North and Reagan possessed in huge quantities.

12 posted on 03/21/2002 8:30:07 PM PST by Jolly Green
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To: Ajnin
Typically the people that say Oliver North is a hero and did nothing wrong during Iran-Contra haven't studied it, but behave as a party Lemming and just believe what everyone else says about it.

I realize that slavish loyalty to a party can get in the way of cleaning out government corruption and what is best for our country.

13 posted on 03/21/2002 8:31:39 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Jolly Green
If Oliver North was really smart, he would have shredded his personal journals along with everything else. But that didn't happen did it? They were released in 1991, particularily his entries from August 9, 1985 interest me.
14 posted on 03/21/2002 8:39:29 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: FreedominJesusChrist
Okay Iran-Contra was bad. Oliver North did bad things. So what. The slant of this so called thesis is not to inform, it's to portray Democrats as superior beings in the realm of liberal fantasy land.
15 posted on 03/21/2002 8:42:56 PM PST by Ajnin
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To: Ajnin
Being that I haven't actually read this person's thesis yet and that we are getting the information and summary from someone who apparently doesn't know a lot about the scandal, I am not going to judge it. I am going to judge Iran-Contra from what I know and I have been researching this subject for years.
16 posted on 03/21/2002 8:45:13 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Ajnin
"So what"

I can't believe that you just said that. You realize that crack cocaine was shipped into Chicago and LA, destroying thousands of people's lives, I am not mainly speaking of the drug-users here, and that is not a big deal? What's the point of making laws in this country if we don't expect our government officials to obey the law? Do you want to know the body count around Iran-Contra and Mena?

17 posted on 03/21/2002 8:48:23 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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To: Benny3740
You "friend" has an interesting twist on selective reporting of limited facts. Obviously he is a communist sympathizer/shill, or very illiterate. (I would suggest better choice of "friends" ....)

Congress passed the "Boland Amendment" stipulating NO APPROPRIATED FUNDS COULD BE EXPENDED TO AID THE CONTRAs. Obviously, the Democrats preferred Danny Ortega and the Communist Sandanistas over any elected government ... especially one that would favor freedoms for people. Granted, some of the Contras weren't nice people, but then again many of the people willing to fight against the Communists are not likely to be candidates for the Vienna Choir.

Oliver North was looking for a way to LEGALLY aid the Contras. Unlike Clinton, who didn't know the meaning of "is" ... North recognized that he could not route U.S. money to the Contras ... per the probably unconstitutional Boland Amendment. So he looked for "legal loopholes". Israel sold arms to the Iranians for a stiff markup, and part of the money went to buy replacement hardware, and the profits went to aid the Contras. Not what Congress wanted, but all within the letter of the law.

The Independent Counsel spent about $110 Million trying to find guilty parties ... and came up with a dry hole. The IC was found to have done many wrong things, and the few convictions that he got were overturned on appeal. (Contrast this to IC Ken Starr's record of more than a dozen convictions and many plea bargins ... and a sitting Governor, plus other high level officials were among those caught. The only thing that kept Clinton (actually, both Hillary AND Bill) for being indicted for various crimes was the understanding that in Washington, D.C, the "jury nullification" by an "OJ TYPE" jury would likely happen.

You asked what we got ... for one, we kept the balance of terror between Iran and Iraq fairly balanced. Better that they fight each other than to fight us.

And Ollie managed to get some assistance and vital funding to assist the Contras ... and that forced Danny Ortega to gamble that he would win elections, and he got trounced. Nicaragua threw out the communists, much to the disgust of Democrats in the U.S. and other communist sympathizers everywhere! This success helped undermine the Soviet Union, which had the "Brezhnev doctrine" of "Once a Communist State, Always a Communist State." Under the Reagan watch, Grenada fell out of the Communist Axis of Evil, then Nicaragua. And of course, Reagan aided the Afghan freedom fighters who sought to force the Soviets out of their country ... and the Soviets left near the end of the 80's. .. another loss Soviets, another "nail in the coffin" for the Soviets (remember Reagan's early claim about how the Soviets would end up in the dustbin of history?? He was right!!).

Hostage taking hasn't been a big issue since the 80's - and if we are looking for a loss of moral standing in the world, we only need look at the many crimes of the Clinton administration ... which gave military and high tech secrets to China for campaign contributions, ignored many terrorist actions which lead to 9/11. Clinton "ran" from Haiti when a Navy ship approached a dock that had protestors on the pier. Clinton cut and ran when the Somali's killed the 18 Army men. Clinton promised action when terrorists tried to topple the World Trade Center in 1993, and after many other terrorist actions. He did respond with expensive cruise missiles - either at a real medical plant (not the "nerve gas facility" he claimed it was), or the $10 mud huts in Afghanistan. Those strikes typically occurred when some Monica testimony or release of information "harmful" to his Presidency might occur. (a true "wag-the-dog" scenario). The blowing up of the Sudan "aspirin factory" was truly harmful to the nation's reputation. Clinton was hitting the wrong target, killing innocent civilians, all to distract from Monica testimony. And you think what Reagan did was harmful? Tell your friend to get his head out of his rectal cavity, and he might smell roses rather than his own mental excrement!!! And the view is better ... and maybe he might learn something .. but I doubt it. Anyone who could put the 6 points he put together is obviously one who is a true communist .. tell a lie often enough and maybe someone will believe it ... maybe even the one who is telling it.

Mike

18 posted on 03/21/2002 8:52:39 PM PST by Vineyard
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To: FreedominJesusChrist
As for a body count,for Reagan it was one that motivated the Iran in Iran-Contra,the torture death of CIA station chief Buckley.
19 posted on 03/21/2002 8:52:58 PM PST by John W
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To: Vineyard
Don't try to legitimize what was illegal. Rather, what he should criticize in his friend's report was that he casually and conveniently ommitted the name of Bill Clinton. Benny, research Mena a little, Iran-Contra is a bi-partisan scandal, and that is the biggest misconception of this scandal. Unfortunately, the average person is too blinded by their own party preference to see the truth and call a spade a spade.
20 posted on 03/21/2002 8:55:33 PM PST by FreedominJesusChrist
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