Posted on 03/26/2002 7:30:11 AM PST by The Old Hoosier
Yesterday, I got into an argument with some libertarians. I promised to humiliate myself if they could answer the following question:
If I want to sell myself into slavery in order to pay off debts, why should the government be able to prevent me? Why should I not have every right to enter into an indissoluble contract surrendering my freedom--temporarily or permanently--to someone else in exchange for some consideration?
I hereby admit that I was wrong, because ThomasJefferson agreed that the government should have no power to prohibit voluntary slavery--a step that I did not think any of them would want to take. I hereby eat crow. (Tpaine and Eagle Eye still haven't given direct answers, but I'll mention it here when they do, and eat more crow.)
The relevant part of the long argument we had is here. TJ agrees to voluntary slavery at 374.
Anything else on your bitter, hateful, socalled mind?
You fail to understand that the "Freedoms" you are so lustfully pursuing are in fact detrimental to society. It is detrimental to your family, friends, children and all those who have to come into contact with those ideas. When you advocate homosexuality, prostitution, drugs, gambling, Abortion, and a host of other destructive activities then you are being blind to the truth. Don't tell me that you personally do not advocate those things because the Libertarians clearly do advocate those very things.
If the Libertarians come to power they will enact laws which will unleash all those activities on society and it will not matter what you personally think about those things. By rejecting God and morality you are dooming thousands if not millions of those around you to death. It is not I who is spreading thoughts of death and destruction. It is in fact you.
Khepera, whatever it looks like, I'm NOT stalking you.
tpaine.........huh????? I'm not quite getting what's made you so ANGRY at the other poster! I do wonder if maybe, maybe maybe God's Spirit may be speaking to you. Please, tpaine, don't turn away from Him. You never know what tomorrow may bring. Heck, we don't know what the next MINUTE will bring! NONE of us!!!
You need help.
Is it hateful of me to try to get the 2 of you to move? Before dying?
The poster (Khepera) is talking about your SPIRITUAL well-being. He believes, as do I, that you need to have Jesus in your life or face eternal damnation. If you look at that as hateful spew, well, you have been warned now, by more than one. And the day WILL come when you will bow b/4 Jesus......and He's going to ask you about your salvation.....
-- I'm not, as fools like Kep are a dime a dozen here. -- Trust me on this, I've seen em ALL come and go.
Come on over to our side. Be a fool for Christ!!! It's the ONLY way to live!!!!!! Please?
You are not content to set idly by in your destruction but desire to take as many others with you as you can. The libertarians believe we should open our boarders to whomever wishes to just amble by. I will point out to you that a country without boarders is no country at all. You advocate legal prostitution which is destructive to not only the direct participants but also destructive of the families. Families which have to deal with those hurt by the unfaithful betrayal of their husbands and wives and the disease spread through promiscuous behaviors.
So it is you who would destroy the lives of so many. Advocating the deaths of millions of babies is not enough for you that you also seek to destroy the minds of your friends and neighbors. Those who you would be ravaged by the recreational use of drugs which you so proudly advocate. Then you wish to destroy many more by promoting the legalization of Gambling which will rip the food from the mouths of children as some will be unable to control their habits. Is that enough for you? No it is not! Now you would promote slavery and acceptance of destructive contracts which would be peddled to the unsuspecting who may be duped as they struggle for a better life.
How can you be so blind to the suffering of others? How can you sleep knowing that you willfully seek to destroy the very nation that has nurtured you and your family? You do not wish to see the truth and are so blinded in your lust that you don't even care about your friends and family enough to provide shelter and comfort from those who wish to destroy them. You will lose your children to these crimes once they are no longer held in regard. Once they have been accepted as just another fun activity to idle your time. Those who are fortunate to have survived these ravages may also suffer as they turn away from God at your urging only to lose everlasting life.
You would do well to reexamine you position since so much is at stake. Even if you do not have enough respect for your own life you should care for the lives of your children and your children's children who will be forced to deal with the consequences of your folly.
Hear ye, hear ye: tpaine abandoned his libertarian principles on the other thread, and wrote that slavery should, in theory, be illegal because the Constitution says so. I hereby eat more crow.
Libertarians generally believe in the privileged authority of signed contracts and in minimal government interference ("The only involvement the government should have is to enforce, if necessary, the contract you and the payer signed." --RJCogburn, above). I can see why they would oppose involuntary enslavement, but not ownership of another person through a voluntary, contractual, consensual agreement with that person.
I don't understand how a libertarian can agree that all slavery is wrong--essentially, with the 13th amdt--without giving up central parts of libertarian ideology. OWK and RJ Cogburn have now endorsed (with qualifications in the case of OWK, who would want to make sure I'm sane before I sign away my freedom) indentured servitude or voluntary slavery, or whatever you want to call it. TJ did the same on the other thread, stating that if I want to be a fool and sign the contract, there's nothing to stop me. Ken H's statements also indicate that, in principle, he thinks it should be OK, although our Constitution currently makes it difficult to enforce such contracts.
Tpaine: Based on the response to this thread, I don't think I'm nuts in thinking Libertarians generally support voluntary indentured servitude. If you oppose it, tpaine, you seem to be the exception, not the rule.
If anyone thinks I've misrepresented his (or anyone else's) views, please let me know.
Please reference the post where I said that.
If we have the bible but not the constitution, there's no one there to protect our right to worship freely. I stand by Aquinas' argument that God wanted us to have governance on earth that reflects his goodness.
You only display your own ignorance of both in your attempts to smear.
If you disagree with a statement of mine, paste it up and argue against what I wrote, not on your version of what was written.
Once more:
Contracts that violate inalienable rights are not morally or legally enforceable.
This position is self evident common sense, & not just a 'libertarian' stance.
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