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Flight 587 Crash Probe Inconclusive
CNN ^ | May 3, 2002 | CNN

Posted on 05/03/2002 8:33:00 PM PDT by John W

Edited on 04/29/2004 2:00:29 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Rokke
...and right now those sources are saying it is too early to state the exact cause...

It happened 6 months ago. I'm not falling for that. You shouldn't either.

41 posted on 05/03/2002 10:04:06 PM PDT by Fred Mertz
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To: abner
I believe the NTSB has determined the tail falling off caused the crash. They are now in the process of determining why it fell off. They haven't released any conclusion about that. It could be that someone sabotoged the tail prior to takeoff, and if that is the case I'm sure they will figure that out. I think, however, that it can be safely concluded that a shoebomber did not cause the tail to shear.
American Airlines chose to disregard the pilots' petition. They correctly said no conclusion has been made to warrant such a grounding. It is rare almost to the point of never happening to permanently ground a type of aircraft during an accident investigation. Instead, as in this case, specific inspections are ordered on aircraft and then the aircraft are released once they pass those inspections.
42 posted on 05/03/2002 10:22:07 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Rokke
Instead, as in this case, specific inspections are ordered on aircraft and then the aircraft are released once they pass those inspections.

If they don't know conclusively what happened to 587, how can they pass any plane?

43 posted on 05/03/2002 10:27:57 PM PDT by abner
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To: abner
Fred, I'm with you. The way the tail sheared off, just doesn't make sense. It was away too clean.

Absolutely. It was a laser beam, not a shoebomb.
44 posted on 05/03/2002 10:32:06 PM PDT by SalukiLawyer
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To: exit82
The problem is, Airbus uses the same tail design in almost all its new aircraft. That means over 2000 aircraft currently flying throughout the world would have to be grounded. Some airlines are composed entirely of Airbus aircraft flying with that tail design. The accident happened over 6 months ago and the NTSB still does not know exactly what caused the failure. Even in cases more clear cut then this, they haven't grounded an entire fleet of an aircraft type. I wouldn't expect them to do that in this case unless/until they determine exactly what caused the tail to shear off.
45 posted on 05/03/2002 10:33:05 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: SalukiLawyer
Hmmmmm... .. . .you may be on to something there... .. . . ... . . . And ALIENS!!!!
46 posted on 05/03/2002 10:34:40 PM PDT by abner
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To: Fred Mertz
Most accident investigations take over a year. They are only 6 months into this one. I think I'll give them some more time to draw their conclusions before I start creating my own.
47 posted on 05/03/2002 10:44:29 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: abner
They are given broad guidelines of what to look for. When the Alaskan Airlines MD-80 went down off the coast of California a few years ago, all airlines that flew them were asked to look at components in the tail that controlled the horizontal stabilizer. Simple visual inspections were enough to determine that the problem might be widespread. The problem with composites appears to be visual inspections aren't enough and more extensive inspections are possible only at a few locations around the world.
48 posted on 05/03/2002 10:57:12 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: exit82
1) There were eyewitnesses, including one in an aircraft that took off the same runway as 587, but right behind it, that saw the whole flight of 587, and didn't see an explosion. Of course, the foil hatters never really bothered to collect and keep quoting the eyewitnesses who never saw an explsion.

2) It's routine for eyewitness (even perfectly sane, intelligent people who believe they are telling the truth in every way) to plane crashes to report seeing an explosion or fire on an aircraft prior to it crashing that never happened. It's basically the brain creating a false memory to "make sense" of an extreme event that is traumatic to watch. Fascinating psychology.

If you were paying attention you'll notice there were several eyewitnesses that claimed that small plane that hit the building in Italy was on fire before it crashed, and I've seen nothing to the effect that the investigation determined it actually WAS on fire before hitting the building.

3) If it's a shoe bomb in the passenger compartment, how does it cleanly shear off the vertical stabilizer as the FIRST part of the plane, to come off, with not a scrap of blast or fire damage to the vertical stabilizer?

3) If it's a shoe bomb in the passenger compartment, where is all the confetti-like debris that would have been blown out of the rupture in the fuselage, such as pureed seat stuffing, overhead bin luggage, etc? There was almost NO small debris floating in Jamaica Bay AT ALL.

4) Why is there no explosion at all recorded on the Cockpit voice recorder? Any shoe bomb would definately have been audible on the CVR.

49 posted on 05/03/2002 11:28:54 PM PDT by John H K
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To: Rokke, Fred Mertz
"I wish you guys would pass your skills on to the feds. You'd save the taxpayers millions."

Me, too. Sometimes I wonder how many FBI lurkers are out there.

50 posted on 05/04/2002 1:33:16 AM PDT by glorygirl
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To: John H K
1. If you have ever taken a flight, please tell me how many times you have been able to see the jet that took off just before you? I would suggest that an eyewitness on the ground would have a much better view and recollection.

This link has direct quotes.

"It was after the eyewitness Tom Lynch, a retired firefighter, told the New York Post. "I'm telling you, the tail was there until the second explosion."

"No tail fell off, not before the explosion. I swear to that," Lynch told the paper's Steve Dunleavy.

The eyewitness said there was absolutely no doubt about what he saw.

"I had my head up taking in that beautiful, clear day and was staring straight at the plane. It made a bank turn and suddenly there was an explosion, orange and black, on the right-hand side of the fuselage. It was a small explosion, about half the size of a car."

2. From the same link, from a cop who is probably very used to witnessing "traumatic events" and professionally trained to be observant and remember the details...

Retired police lieutenant Jim Conrad, told Dunleavy:

"I saw exactly what Tom saw. I was near a stop light at the Marine Parkway Bridge. First, the small explosion. The plane kept on going, tail intact, then the big explosion and the plane nose-dived. The first thing I said was: "The bastards did it again.'"

"Lynch said he's tried to contact the FBI and the NTSB but they weren't interested in his story. Ditto Sens. Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, and his congressional representative Anthony Weiner, who also gave him the brush off.

"I got no response from anyone," he said"

3. And, from thislink, re: small debris.

"Flight 587's debris were scattered, leading to some speculation that the plane had broken up in midair"

Not to mention all the fires on the ground that would have destroyed debris, and the fact that the TV photogs are not going to waste time showing floating small debris when there was all that great fire footage.

For your second point 3, from this:

"Investigators confirmed that inspections in New York show that the six primary attachment points made of metal that connect the vertical stabilizer with the rest of the plane were found still attached and in their proper position. That has led investigators to focus more closely on whether microscopic defects or wear-and-tear of the composite components housed inside the attachment points and vertical stabilizer caused the rudder to shear off."

Isn't it possible someone one tampered with the attachments,prior to the flight, as a failsafe? (The plane, obviously, could never have become airborne if they were loosened very much.) It's also possible that there was a "weak link" as investigators describe, and the force of a blast severed the connection. Finally,

4. Not necessarily. Especially if the explosion took place in the back of the plane. Since we haven't heard one of these cockpit tapes in a long time, it's difficult to tell what can and cannot be heard.

Just call me tinfoil.

51 posted on 05/04/2002 2:24:00 AM PDT by glorygirl
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To: glorygirl
Sorry, here's the correct link for the second point 3.
52 posted on 05/04/2002 2:31:14 AM PDT by glorygirl
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To: John W
Terrorist or stall-spin.
53 posted on 05/04/2002 3:16:19 AM PDT by Waco
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To: Rokke
Rokke, I respect your knowledge on the subject. I agree that grounding a whole fleet of planes would be unthinkable to the world's airlines, however, the severity of what is alleged to be the initiating event here would dictate just that.

No one will admit that though. Everyone, including me,hopes that this was a one time event. But if the cause is what they are saying, there are many, many accidents like this waiting to occur. That is just as unthinkable.

Although I don't agree with your conclusions, I always learn something from you, and for that, I say, thanks.

54 posted on 05/04/2002 4:05:22 AM PDT by exit82
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To: glorygirl
Thank you for your post #51. You saved me at least a half hour in replying to John H. K., and you said it far better than I could. Welcome to the tinfoil hat crowd.
55 posted on 05/04/2002 4:08:54 AM PDT by exit82
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To: glorygirl; Fred Mertz
"Just call me tinfoil."

Good references. Ever wonder why some topics get pounced on and hammered down?

Almost like Assigned Tasks.

56 posted on 05/04/2002 5:30:02 AM PDT by rdavis84
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To: rdavis84; glorygirl; fred mertz
It would be interesting to know how the tasks are assigned.

On C-SPAN a week or two ago, I actually heard someone in the background instructing a caller on what to say.

57 posted on 05/04/2002 7:15:42 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
That's one of the reasons to keep up the Volume of info flow. It seems to be causing some overflow to the point that even the normally disinterested are noting that there's some serious problems with our government.

I like to chat with some of the "checkout" folks at the grocery and 'elsewhere' :-). It's amazing the disaffection that's out there, with most of it aimed AT the government, at least in our area.

58 posted on 05/04/2002 10:29:49 AM PDT by rdavis84
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To: exit82
I learn something new on every one of these threads too. I wish all participants (myself included) were as civil as you. We'd probably all learn a lot more.
59 posted on 05/04/2002 8:44:25 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Rokke
I too need to work on my civility skills. Thanks for making this an informative thread.
60 posted on 05/04/2002 9:05:20 PM PDT by Fred Mertz
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