Posted on 07/26/2002 12:51:26 PM PDT by stands2reason
Edited on 04/23/2004 12:04:40 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
I'm not even Italian and I can cook better Italian than the Olive Garden.
But what I cannot do is come up with dishes that appeal to a broad enough audience I could base a multi-million dollar restaurant chain around them. They do that part pretty darn well.
"Words, sir, can be employed as weapons, as anyone who posts to this forum is well aware." Is it really necessary to be this formal. What is this, court? The Senate?
You're right about one thing. I'm much, much younger than you are. But what does it matter? Immaturity knows no age limit. At 56, you should know better than to verbally attack people for using language you don't like. If you see two black people joshing each other on the bus; calling each other nigger, or nigga, do you verbally assault them? Do you run up to them and chastise them for being so insensitive? Do black people even live near you? Where do you live? Kansas? North Dakota? In NJ there are many different ethnicities. People who think of themselves as AMERICANS and don't get all worked up about their race/color/enthic background, etc. express this fact by poking fun at their own race, color, etc. I am far from the only one who feels this way. I have black friends who make fun of their race. I have Jewish friends and Asian friends who do the same. My Arab friend continually refers to himself as an A-rab or raghead, or camel jockey. He has no self-esteem problems. He's proud of his heritage. That's New Jersey for you.
There were many other people using ethnic slurs on this thread. Why did you single me out? Why did the term "WOP" get you so riled up? Are you guilty of some of the things I was poking fun at? If you don't like it, you can draw on your 56 years of experience to the old adage. "Sticks and stones...."
I found that moving amonst upper class social circles in the U.S. is much easier that it would be in European countries. In the states the only thing you have to do is dress the part and eat with manners. In Europe your accent, facial features, name, all could be strikes against you.
I'm not sure that it's really much different in the United States. In my experience, dress and table manners will only get one so far, surname and accent matter (especially in the South and New England), appearance and education matter everywhere, and in the highest circles, connections, breeding (did one grow up riding, sailing, or golfing or playing tennis before they were mass sports), etc.) and ancestry still count, believe it or not.
The humorist and satirist Florence King wrote a remarkable little book entitled WASP, Where is Thy Sting? about twenty years ago or so. Out of print, but I highly commend it to you, especially if there is a WASP side to your heritage. My arch-WASP Mother and I were almost literally rolling on the floor reading it, recognizing one relative or another in most of the caricatures.
I'm remined of the regional differences in the questions people ask a new acquaintance in a social setting:
On the West Coast: What are you into?, i.e. what are you interested in?
On the East Coast: What do you do?, i.e. how much money do you make?
In the South: Who are your people?, i.e. where are you from and is your background respectable?
Curious.
On the East Coast: What do you do?, i.e. how much money do you make? I sigh when that is the first question asked of me at a social function, especially by a pretty woman whom I'm interested in. I have friends who are distinctly red necks. I also have friends who come from Old Money. It's really funny seing the two different worlds.
Tastes fine to me!!!!
"Also, I hold several college degrees. I'm not so trusting of people that throw this sort of stuff in my face."
You brought up the issue of education, I didn't.
"Are these the ones that you can purchase for $19.95 on the internet? How many is several? Two? Nine?"
I don't know anything about those - you are apparently more familiar with them than I am.
"Some of the smartest people I know don't even have one college degree. Some of the dumbest have "several". No offense to you with that one. You could be a nuclear physicist for all I know."
You are correct. However, as I well know, and you may never find out, to be both intelligent and well-educated is better than being just one of either category.
"Words, sir, can be employed as weapons, as anyone who posts to this forum is well aware." Is it really necessary to be this formal. What is this, court? The Senate?"
You can't refute the accuracy of my assertion.
"You're right about one thing. I'm much, much younger than you are."
It shows.
"But what does it matter? Immaturity knows no age limit."
Again, you brought up age.
"At 56, you should know better than to verbally attack people for using language you don't like."
Huhh?? I thought the purpose of this forum was to express one's ideas, pro or con, about the ideas of others.
"If you see two black people joshing each other on the bus; calling each other nigger, or nigga, do you verbally assault them? Do you run up to them and chastise them for being so insensitive?"
No, but then I'm not black. I'm sure that any one of the very many intelligent, well-educated, refined black people in America who witnessed such an idiotic public exhibition would be duly angered by it.
"Do black people even live near you?"
Uhhh, Yes. So what?
"Where do you live? Kansas? North Dakota?"
Why? What has that got to do with this discussion?
"In NJ there are many different ethnicities.
I am very familiar with New Jersey, having spent many years there in the past and visit it frequently.
"People who think of themselves as AMERICANS and don't get all worked up about their race/color/enthic background, etc. express this fact by poking fun at their own race, color, etc."
Wrong. Americans are a disparate group of people representing a collage of various ethnicities, blended to varying degrees. A REAL American doesn't disparage the ethnic background of other Americans or even his own.
"I am far from the only one who feels this way. I have black friends who make fun of their race. I have Jewish friends and Asian friends who do the same. My Arab friend continually refers to himself as an A-rab or raghead, or camel jockey. He has no self-esteem problems. He's proud of his heritage."
Maybe you are hanging around with the wrong people. Your Arab friend has an odd way of expressing his "self-esteem".
"That's New Jersey for you."
Well, that's a PART of New Jersey - the wrong part.
"There were many other people using ethnic slurs on this thread. Why did you single me out?"
I didn't intend to "single you out". Yours was the first post I noticed with an ethnic perjorative and it just sort of jumped out at me, as the other posts up to that point hadn't used one. The fact that you claim to be of Italian background added to my ire.
"Why did the term "WOP" get you so riled up?"
That perjorative is as vile to an American of Italian ethnicity as "wetback" would be to an American of Mexican ancestry.
"Are you guilty of some of the things I was poking fun at? If you don't like it, you can draw on your 56 years of experience to the old adage. "Sticks and stones...."
Oh, and what were the "other things" you were poking fun at? Black hair? Dark Complections? Sicilians? I don't find any of those particularly amusing, not connecting any of them with objects of particular mirth or scorn. Obviously you think otherwise.
I don't think you even know what these perjorative mean or their derivation. Maybe if you did, you'd think a little differently. But then, perhaps not.
"You brought up the issue of education, I didn't." Not to my knowledge. Besides you never answered my question. How many is "several"? What are the degrees in? The lack of a college degree doesn't necessarily confer a lack of education. One can be self-educated.
You can't refute the accuracy of my assertion. Maybe, but the accuracy of the statement doesn't diminish its pomposity.
"No, but then I'm not black. I'm sure that any one of the very many intelligent, well-educated, refined black people in America who witnessed such an idiotic public exhibition would be duly angered by it." Exchange black for Italian Americans. And exchange the n-words for various Italian slurs. Would you interrupt them then? Would you berate them for their lack of sensitivity?
"I don't think you even know what these perjorative mean or their derivation." Maybe I don't. Why does the term bug you so much? Were you picked on as a kid for your heritage? (I mean the question in all seriousness). Check some of the posts afterward. I'm not the only ethnic even on the thread who referred to himself/herself with a slur. You are the first person who even cared when I used the phrase.
Yeah, we're all a bunch of Melanze/"Moul'giane". No wonder those of us whose forefathers came from the Mezzogiorno are so well endowed. ;-)
Sorry, it should have read "straight man" not "stright man". I'm not a typist.
"You brought up the issue of education, I didn't." Not to my knowledge."
"Are you even out of high school?" - quote from jjm2111 in earlier post.
"Besides you never answered my question. How many is "several"? What are the degrees in? The lack of a college degree doesn't necessarily confer a lack of education. One can be self-educated."
Why is my education suddenly relevent to the topic under discussion? I hold two degrees in the sciences, a B.A. and an M.S. Neither your education nor mine is relevant to the topic under discussion.
"You can't refute the accuracy of my assertion." Maybe, but the accuracy of the statement doesn't diminish its pomposity."
I don't think my statements are pompous. If you want me to use simplier language to help you understand, let me know.
"No, but then I'm not black. I'm sure that any one of the very many intelligent, well-educated, refined black people in America who witnessed such an idiotic public exhibition would be duly angered by it." Exchange black for Italian Americans. And exchange the n-words for various Italian slurs. Would you interrupt them then? Would you berate them for their lack of sensitivity?"
I don't know what I would do under the circumstances. It would depend on the situation I suppose.
"I don't think you even know what these perjorative mean or their derivation." Maybe I don't."
Maybe you should find out the meaning of a term before you use it. You might be surprised and not find its use so acceptable.
Why does the term bug you so much?
I think white ethnics are entitled to as much respect as non-white ethnics and perjorative expressions regardless of their derivation are hostile words. Why are YOU so surprised at my reaction?
Were you picked on as a kid for your heritage? (I mean the question in all seriousness)."
Rarely. I don't fit the "typical" appearance and I'm not all of Italian extraction anyway.
"Check some of the posts afterward. I'm not the only ethnic even on the thread who referred to himself/herself with a slur. You are the first person who even cared when I used the phrase."
I did see the others on the thread and the sentiments I expressed to you are exactly my feelings with regards to the others. I can't be sending out posts every minute to everybody. I'm a busy guy. In a sense I guess I have honored you with my attention.
BWAHAHA!
You are right, I did bring up education first. However, the intensity of your criticism led me to believe that you were someone who was young and thin skinned.
"I don't know what I would do under the circumstances. It would depend on the situation I suppose." Unless they were hassling some old lady, I really doubt you would intervene.
"I think white ethnics are entitled to as much respect as non-white ethnics and perjorative expressions regardless of their derivation are hostile words. Why are YOU so surprised at my reaction?" Trust me, I am. I've never had anyone react that way before. That is probably in part becuase I only use the terms in front of people who I have more than a casual contact with and I've really only used the words in a joking manner.
In the futue, I'll try to avoid the terms, as tone isn't readily apparent in forum posts, and some, like yourself, take the terms far worse than others.
"I'm a busy guy. In a sense I guess I have honored you with my attention." Thank you, your Majesty.
I guess you ARE a lot younger than me. In Vaudeville Comedy, a straight man was a guy who came up with innocent sounding lines in a comedy skit. The comedian than used those innocent lines to create a funny joke. (Vaudeville went out before my time, but the phrase is still used occasionally.)
"You are right, I did bring up education first. However, the intensity of your criticism led me to believe that you were someone who was young and thin skinned."
No, just old, and maybe too thinskinned and thickheaded.
"I don't know what I would do under the circumstances. It would depend on the situation I suppose." Unless they were hassling some old lady, I really doubt you would intervene."
Your probably right. I'm not as strong as I used to be.
"In the futue, I'll try to avoid the terms, as tone isn't readily apparent in forum posts, and some, like yourself, take the terms far worse than others."
Thank you.
"I'm a busy guy. In a sense I guess I have honored you with my attention." Thank you, your Majesty."
Your welcome. The older you get, the less time you have. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, inconsistency is an indictment of the entire chain. It shows upper management isn't keeping the rank-and file in order. It hurts all the locations, good and bad.
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