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Myth One:Gun Experts Say There is No Such Thing as a Civilian Assault Weapon
Violence Policy Center ^ | All the time | VPC lawyer/PR

Posted on 08/12/2002 11:20:09 AM PDT by lavaroise

<! --------- Body of the press release is inserted below---------------------------------->

The NRA, the gun industry, the gun press, and other pro-gun "experts" today claim that there is no such thing as a civilian assault weapon. But before the guns came under fire, these same experts enthusiastically described these civilian versions of military weapons as "assault rifles," "assault pistols," and "military assault" weapons. For example:



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: banglist; gunviolence
Myth2: The violence policy center is not about violence, it is about confinement of law abiding citizens and the local police.

And all weapons can be used for assault and military purpose. Is there such a class as assault weapons save in the dictated definition by the violence policy center. A class of weapon is defined by the action or the caliber or what not. Where in the ATF regs or whatever is there such assault weapon class? The FAA has classes of airplanes by teh number of engines. A class of weapon is a narrow function centric characteristic of the weapon, not a broad vagueness doctrine gossipy definition piceked up from news papers and the VPC.

1 posted on 08/12/2002 11:20:09 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: *bang_list
I meant: a distinctive class in law is not a broad vagueness-doctrine-violating gossipy definition picked up from news papers and fantasized by the VPC as a result.

2 posted on 08/12/2002 11:22:11 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: lavaroise
More semantic cleverness from VPC - there is such a thing as an "assault rifle" and an "assault pistol" - these are selective-fire weapons that have full automatic capabilities. No "expert" with whom I am acquainted has claimed that these do not exist, they simply state the truth: that fully automatic weapons are available to the civilian market in tiny quantities and under heavy licensing restrictions.

Now, "assault weapon" is a vernacular of another order. This is a term deliberately left vague so as to subsume any gun VPC or anyone else does not like because it resembles a military weapon in appearance, more or less. Scary-looking guns, and nothing more. VPC is acting with its customary disingenuosness in attempting to blur the distinction.

3 posted on 08/12/2002 11:26:13 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: lavaroise
Experts Say There is No Such Thing as a Civilian Assault Weapon

Yeah, but there should be.

Andrew

4 posted on 08/12/2002 11:33:42 AM PDT by Andy Ross
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To: lavaroise
http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm
Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.

5 posted on 08/12/2002 11:35:11 AM PDT by jdege
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To: Andy Ross
Experts Say There is No Such Thing as a Civilian Assault Weapon

Not even with a less militaristic paint job? Candy-apple red metalflake and pinstripes, perhaps?


6 posted on 08/12/2002 11:44:26 AM PDT by archy
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To: jdege
of public support for restrictions on these weapons.

Public support of restrictions on citizens are not legal. Public support here is akin to mob action. Welcome to America's Zimbabwe watch.

7 posted on 08/12/2002 12:04:11 PM PDT by lavaroise
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To: archy
Well, parking won't be much of a problem...just park ON TOP OF ANY VEHICLE you choose. But the EPA gas mileage ratings will be murder!
8 posted on 08/12/2002 12:43:10 PM PDT by ExSoldier
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To: lavaroise
I don't know, what's the difference between a pitchfork and an assault pitchfork?
9 posted on 08/12/2002 12:46:48 PM PDT by Kermit
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To: archy
I want one. ;-)

(Of course, I said that about the M48 that I passed on the road this weekend.)

10 posted on 08/12/2002 12:48:38 PM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: lavaroise
The Miller decision in 1939, the last time the Supreme Court addressed the 2nd Amendment, said it was okay for the US to outlaw sawed-off shotguns, because they didn't have a demonstrable military use. Thus, under the 2nd Amendment, guns WITH a demonstrable military use are prefered, so that the People can remained armed to stronger degree than the government, in order to defend its freedom.
11 posted on 08/12/2002 12:50:31 PM PDT by Kermit
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To: lavaroise
Guns & Ammo also found point shooting from the hip to be "surprisingly easy" with the HK 94 9mm Carbine

"The HK 91 Semi-Automatic Assault Rifle from Heckler & Koch...was derived directly from the G3"

Of course, per the usual VPC MO there is no mention of the fact that you can likely count the number of times since recorded history that either of these particular ASSAULT WEAPONS has been used in the commission of a crime ON ONE HAND, but that's clearly beside the point.

Like the 'Nuge said, "If guns cause crime, mine are all defective."

12 posted on 08/12/2002 1:05:53 PM PDT by xsrdx
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To: ExSoldier
Well, parking won't be much of a problem...just park ON TOP OF ANY VEHICLE you choose. But the EPA gas mileage ratings will be murder!

Hey, if it's an economy vehicle you want, try a German *Wiesel* Or *Ocelot*, an air-droppable paratrooper support vehicle. Light and handy, and with 4 mounted *Stinger* AA rocket launcher tubes, just the thing for annoying the folks in the black helicopters....


13 posted on 08/12/2002 1:38:18 PM PDT by archy
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To: an amused spectator
I want one. ;-)

(Of course, I said that about the M48 that I passed on the road this weekend.)

I too have a soft spot for the M48, the vehicle in which I went through Armor AIT [tank crewman school] at Ft. Knox during the mid-1960s.

But you'll need a few pals to crew an M48, though you can get by with a driver, a loader and a gunner who shoots from the tank commander's top hatch position.

You'll find maintenance a chore, with 4 hours of crew effort required for every hour of operation, and you'll likely want one of the several later Diesel-engined modifications, such as the later M48A3 or M48A5. The 120mm gun turret of the M60/2000, essentially an M1 tank turret built to work on an M60 tank chassis, would offer both automotive and gunnery upgrades....

But if you're a lone wolf, the old Swedish *S-tank* could be operated and fought by just one crewman in emergencies. They were kind of neat, and an interesting follow-on development of the low-profile assault guns like the German Sturmgewehr III, the closest I've gotten to crewing in was a Czech Hetzer....


14 posted on 08/12/2002 1:50:52 PM PDT by archy
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To: lavaroise
I call them "Sport-Utility Rifles."
15 posted on 08/12/2002 1:55:38 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: lavaroise
...and the lethality-enhancing utility of their distinctive characteristics as selling points

Uhh, aren't guns supposed to be "lethality-enhancing"? They don't seem too useful otherwise...
16 posted on 08/12/2002 1:55:51 PM PDT by WindMinstrel
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To: archy
4 hours of crew effort for every hour of operation?? Good lord! What about them makes them need such maintenance?
17 posted on 08/12/2002 1:58:44 PM PDT by WindMinstrel
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To: WindMinstrel
4 hours of crew effort for every hour of operation?? Good lord! What about them makes them need such maintenance?M

Four automatic weapons, sonmetimes 5 or 6, and a main gun with a hydraulic recoil system to maintain, each with their own maintenance requirements [and recordkeeping] if they're going to work, a 750- 1200 horsepower engine fed through a cross-drive transmission to three tons of track on either side, each link of which needs its end connectors checked every 50 miles or so, plus center guides in the tracks that require similar attention, which keep those tracks on the support rollers. Those rollers/road wheels themselves require frequent greasing, and the torsion bars on which they're suspended also require checks and replacement if/when they break- as they do during operation over rough terrain- that's 50 tons they support, sometimes at speeds reaching 50 MPH.

The power pack [engine/transmission] itself, needing oil as much as fuel, plus hydraulic fluid level checks [it's an automatic in an M48, easy to work] and constant checking and cleaning of the air cleaners. And, of course, the linkage and fuel lines requiring checks to make sure they're tightened correctly- there's a lot of vibration to work EVERYTHING on board loose. Oh, and the lines for the two fixed fire extinguishers, as well as two portables usually carried aboard, one in the turret and one in the driver's compartment- just in case there is a fuel leak, or a splach on a hot engine deck while refuelling.

Then there's the electrical system, keeping the sights and rangefinder in alignment with the main gun and coaxial machinegun, driver's lights and night vision gear, the tank commander's cupola equipment and the radios, all of which has to be worked on while pulling routine radio watches and keeping watch on the portion of the security perimeter or *laager* that's the crew's responsibility, refueling and rearming the guns, keeping fuel, water and supplies aboard, fixing broken fenders and front and rear blackout lights, maintaining 4 heavy-duty 24-volt batteries, antennas [they break hitting overhead tree limbs],the intercom system and 4 crewman's CVC helmets and several dozen other duties that escape me at the moment....

But if you take care of your vehicle, it'll work for you and cause the other people a considerable headache...and if there are several of you the effect is multiplied considerably....


18 posted on 08/12/2002 2:27:14 PM PDT by archy
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To: archy
I LIKE IT! I LIKE IT! Will they take trades? How about financing? Good supported track system, looks like the treads don't weigh in at six TONS each, like the M1A1 Abrahms....could be just the thing for softening up the hunting area before going in on foot. And as you said....it'd give the black helicopters the heebie jeeebies! Like the grunt I was my motto is: "IF IT FLIES...IT DIES!" or "Shoot 'em ALL down and sort 'em out on the ground!" lol I wonder why that philosophy always makes my rotorhead buddies so nervous? Hey we got good friendly identification training right? Oh wait that's right...the UN will tend to use host country equipment whenever possible....oh well.
19 posted on 08/12/2002 5:20:55 PM PDT by ExSoldier
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To: lavaroise
I just don't understand this handwringing, whining lament that the liberals are constantly moaning. Any weapon, when used in resistance of tyranny is an assault weapon. If you're a truly free country you have no NEED to fear any weapon. IF on the other hand, your motives are suspect and you would approach that precious jewel that is our Bill of Rights...then indeed your life is at risk.

What do these bozos think was used at the battle of Lexington? Or along the Concord Road? Lemme tell you, I would much rather take a hit from an M16 than one from a Kentucky Long Rifle cal .58! I just gave my classes today their summerschool exam for world history. The question dealing with the American Revolution went like this: What act caused the outbreak of gunfire that was known as the "shot heard 'round the WORLD?" ANSWER: "The King of England, representing the lawful government of the new world colonies, attempted to seize the personally held firearms of the citizenry."

I would also accept the short answer: "GUN CONTROL." Nobody in my class this summer scored under a "C" when I took over three weeks ago, there were nine kids failing.

20 posted on 08/12/2002 5:32:10 PM PDT by ExSoldier
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To: archy
I did the Armor Officers Advanced Course at Ft Knox in 1993. Thereafter I did a branch transfer from infantry (where I had spent 10 yrs) to armor and got qualified to operate and command all stations in that awesome machine. Then along came the Clinton RIF and I was screwed. Forced out just as I was about to hit major.
21 posted on 08/12/2002 5:37:48 PM PDT by ExSoldier
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To: ExSoldier
Nobody in my class this summer scored under a "C" when I took over three weeks ago, there were nine kids failing.

LOL! indeed, why would kids be enthusiastic learning leftist bull. Maybe there is hope.

22 posted on 08/13/2002 1:29:09 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Kermit
I guess only them can deefine classes of weapons, legal precedents and constitutions begone. That's the central hypocrisy of that article indeed.
23 posted on 08/13/2002 1:58:37 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: ExSoldier
You ever see What Good Can a Handgun Do Against an Army? Great stuff.
24 posted on 08/13/2002 5:21:56 AM PDT by WindMinstrel
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To: lavaroise
A 1990 review in the NRA's American Rifleman of the Sites Spectre HC Pistol said, "A gun like the Spectre is primarily intended for hip-firing....

What they left out after the "...." is most likely "because the the sight system is not so hot" or some other such statement.

I know it's hard to believe the VPC would leave out part of a quote that makes it irrelevant to their thesis

25 posted on 08/13/2002 7:28:31 PM PDT by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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