Posted on 09/13/2002 5:08:13 AM PDT by kattracks
Actor Mel Gibson, a staunchly orthodox Roman Catholic who will play Christ in an upcoming movie, says the Vatican is a "wolf in sheep's clothing" and that he doesn't believe in the present-day Church as an institution.
Gibson, who calls himself an "old-fashioned Catholic" devoted to the Latin mass and pre-Vatican II Catholicism told the Italian newspaper Il Giornale that he believes in God and is happy that his only daughter has decided to become a nun.
In Rome to film "Passion," a new film about the final hours of Christ's life, Gibson, 46 recalled that he had a stern Catholic upbringing as a youngster in Australia, where he attended Catholic school.
"My love for religion was transmitted to me by my father," he told the newspaper. "But I do not believe in the Church as an institution." Gibson said he has a private chapel at his home in Malibu, Calif., at which mass is celebrated every Sunday in Latin.
The replacement of the Latin liturgy by vernacular languages has caused many Catholics such as Gibson to seek out parishes where the Latin mass is celebrated on Sundays. The Vatican allows Latin masses but requires permission to be granted by local bishops.
Vatican II rules permit local bishops to apply for so-called "indults" - exceptions that allow mass to be celebrated in Latin. In recent years there has been a growing movement to restore Latin as the language of the mass. Adherents point to the fact that the pope continues to say his private daily mass in Latin
Gibson's objections to the post-Vatican II Church echo those of the members of the Society of St. Pius X, which broke away from Rome partially because of the abandonment of the Latin or Tridentine liturgy. It has chapels scattered around the U.S., where the liturgy is the pre-Vatican II Tridentine mass celebrated in Latin.
In the U.S. the Society claims it has 43 priests, 60 seminarians, 15 priories, 98 chapels and 26 schools.
According to Britain's Times. Gibson and his wife, Robyn, have been married for more than 20 years. He is fiercely protective of his seven children (six sons and one daughter, who he says wants to be a nun, which he is very happy about). He says he was attracted to the story of Christ's last hours before the crucifixion because it is "the drama of a man torn between his divine spirit and his earthly weakness."
In the Garden of Gethsemane, on the road to Calvary and at Golgotha, Gibson said, Jesus is often described as being calmly resigned to his suffering and death despite St. Luke's account of Christ's agony in the Garden of Olives, where he underwent an attack of hematidrosa - where victims sweat blood as a result of profound emotion or great fear.
Gibson says, "my Jesus will be shaken by his human suffering. Real blood will flow from the wound in his side, and the screams of his crucifixion will be real as well."
Catholic sources told the Times that Gibson sought the advice of theologians and prelates in Rome for his film and that the actor has strong views on divorce, abortion and contraception.
That's okay. Jesus doesn't like the liberal and ACLU interpretation...
I know, I know it sounds incredibly nit-picky. But, as the cultral disaster inexoribly unfolds within the Church, it is impossible not to see all the underground roots heaving up and revealing the relationship between the minor irritants, aesthetic abominations, the foppishness, the homosexuality the girlie-poo-poo-ness....
Uhhmmm. I should have just stopped with: "I agree with your #52," and let it go at that. But nooooo.....
2. And anyway, when assessing the manuscript tradition, one does not count, one weighs and balances according to a very careful logical process.
3. Are you claiming that hemorraging of the capillaries in the scalp during periods of mental or physical stress is impossible or unknown?
4. Are you claiming that Dr. Luke himself would not have known of it? How do you know that?
5. Are you arguing that the Evangelist would not have dared include such details of anguish suffered by our Lord?
6. Are you arguing that the Evangelist would not have described such suffering by our Lord, since it runs counter to the Evangelist's peaceful description of Jesus' suffering and death (see the absence of the anguished cry from the cross in Luke's Gospel)?
Here is a list, sorted by zipcode, of Catholic traditional Latin Masses icluding CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, diocesan and elderly Catholic priests independent of various groupings. Just watch out for Old Catholic or Western Orthdox poseurs - there are even one or two 24 hour wonders also such as the 'SSCR' LOL!The Tradio list includes all manner of schismatic priests, as well as a very few dioscesan priests who are not schismatic. Anyone who has an interest in attending one of these Masses should be well aware of what he is getting. Excerpts from a comment of mine made in the past:
[At the traditio website] The term independent is used to mean a number of things, and you have to ask what the person means. If you are considering going to one of these Churches you should call them and ask who their Bishop is. If they won’t tell you, they are likely schismatic, or don’t have one (which in the end is the same thing). If they will tell you do a quick search to see if he is a legitimate Bishop in union with Rome. If you want I can help with that. Many of these independent Churches are sedevacantists, feeneyites, etc. For example, taking one I know of for sure:
Our Lady of Victory Roman Catholic ChapelIs sedevacantist, that is they don’t believe there is a Pope right now, and don’t recognize JPII, JPI, Paul VI, or John XXIII, or Vatican II (at all). My understanding is that the SSPV (Priestly Society of St. Pius V) and the CMRI (Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen) are similarly sedevacantists. If you attend their Masses it is clear (and all sides agree) that you are not attending a Mass in union with JPII. That is, they are clearly schismatic, or in their view, JPII and the rest of us are clearly schismatic. These Masses generally operate with a 1958 or earlier Tridentine Missal.
2566 Sable Blvd., Aurora, CO 80011-2962
Fr. Eugene Berry, (303) 364-8040, fax 341-2115, welcome-to.ourladyofvictory
Independent, SU 8 & 10 (High) am, Holydays 8 am & 7:30 pm (High)
Others, like the feeneyites (listed as independents on this list) and SSPX claim to be in union with the Pope, even though he (or a predecessor in the Feeneyite case) has excommunicated their leaders/Bishops. They deny the excommunications are valid, etc. etc. They deny they are schismatic, and seem to claim that if they put a picture of the Pope on their website that means they are not schismatic, no matter how many nasty things they say about him. . . . .[O]nly priests are actually SSPX members. The laity can’t be members, regardless of if they consider themselves formally attached to the Society or not.
Many consider the new Mass (in English) invalid. They use the 1962 Missal, the same missal used in the Indult Masses. Though they don’t always admit it upfront, if you debate with them they often call us heretics (that is, the entire Church, not just you, is heretical, etc.) I have heard them say things like Mother Theresa cared more for money than saving souls. In short, they don’t like us, except when they think they can convert you to their position.
If you consider going to one of the Masses listed at the Traditio cite you really need to consider what you are getting yourself into. If you don’t mind the possibility of schism to get Latin, then they have wonderful Masses and many very devout, holy members. From experience, they also have a lot of petty griping and uncharitableness. Otherwise, consider their theology. While they deny it, it is improper to attend their Masses if a valid and regular Mass is available to you. They of course, contend one cannot go to the Novus Ordo, and some even contend that you cannot go to the Indult, even though it uses the same exact liturgy they use. A list of Tridentine Masses in union with the Pope is here. They always list the Bishop, though he is seldom the actual celebrant.
Dominus Vobiscum
patent
Acquire a conscience, informed not only by knowledge, but by humility, both spiritual and intellectual. As Flannery O'Connor says, you do not reform the Church by saying "the Church is corrupt; I'll have none of it."
No one who allows himself to be quoted as kissing off the institutional Church is a Catholic. The present evidence suggests that Mel Gibson is just another idiosyncratic movie star in love with his opinions. As such, I don't see the point of discussing him on a Catholic thread at all, except as an object lesson in moral vanity.
While that is true, many independent Churches are nothing of the kind. For those who use the directory at traditio.com, the best advice is caveat emptor.
Which is why I suggested calling regarding independents. However, I have yet to find an “independent” Church that was in communion with the Pope. This shouldn’t be terribly surprising, as that is what the term independent means. I also have yet to hear anyone explain how a Catholic Church can be “independent.” There are plenty of Protestant Churches that are independent, but then depending on the sect, their theology allows for that. The Catholic sect does not.Many of these independent Churches are sedevacantists, feeneyites, etc.While that is true, many independent Churches are nothing of the kind. For those who use the directory at traditio.com, the best advice is caveat emptor.
patent +AMDG
All those who KNOWINGLY and OBSTINANTLY in the face of CORRECTION hold the heresies of Vatican II , or other heresies, have defected from Christ, His Faith, and His Church.Yes, those of us who follow an ecumenical Council of the Church, and follow the Pope and the hierarchy, we are all heretics. Thanks for help making your position clear, so that everyone knows just how out there you are.
During the Arian heresy of the 4th century, 80% of the clergy denied the Divinity of Christ.You took a poll perhaps? Please prove this.
patent +AMDG
Coming from an Episcopalian background I can certainly sympathise with Mr. Gibson's viewpoint, and I must ask you, Is it Mel that split from the church, or the church that split from him?
While I respect your opinion, I LOVE the idea of bringing a real depiction of Christ's suffering FOR the world TO the world.
If the producers' intentions are to market the agony of Christ and succeed in making a mint, so be it, but if the world is exposed to the love of God that brought such a traumatic and radical expression of it, then, I say, BRING IT ON, LORD!
Our view should be that of the apostle Paul, who said:
"Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice." (Philippians 1:15-18)
Can you imagine if someone would do a truthful depiction of the horrors of abortion? What impact would that make?
he was VALIDLY ORDAINED a priest by the SSPX USING THE OLD RITE AND VALID OF ORDINATION - as opposed to all those invalidly ordained since the rite of ordination has been changed three times since 1968.Changing the Rite of ordination hardly changes its validity.
So the real question is, do you want the real Faith, the real Mass and a real priest who believes in transubstantationI do have the real faith, a real Mass, and a real priest who believes in transubstantiation. I have a great deal of respect for Fr. Berry, I think he is a wonderful priest. I do disagree, however, with his theology, and I do think he is schismatic.
or do you want to be in union with whom I think is the Ordinary of that diocese, "cardinal" Mahony,LOL. You think Cardinal Mahony is the ordinary in Colorado? The rest of the world is more or less aware that the Cardinal is in LA. Do you ever fact check your posts?
I’m still waiting for your proof on the beliefs of 80% of the priests in the Arian heresy.
patent +AMDG
....and people wonder why there is an attraction to that 'ole time religion of the Assemblies of God Churches. The Sunday sermon is a from-the-gut message of unabashed emotion relying on Biblical passages as the focal point. No dried up pretend, no appeals for money. In a Pentecostal setting the sermon itself is the primary motivator for financial support for both the local church and those gifted in making the Word of God understood both intellectually and spiritually.
Catholic priests don't even begin to measure up to delivering a similar heart-felt homily, and this observation is made as a practicing Roman Catholic.
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