Beltway Sniper Shootings-FR Commentary-Tuesday, Oct. 15

Fox News, CNN, Press Conferences | October 15, 2002 | Fox News, CNN, Press Conferences

[Peach]

To avoid multiple vanity threads regarding any news from press conferences, let's keep a live commentary thread going again today.

Note: This is the graphics-free thread. Graphics can be found under the thread titled "Beltway Sniper Shootings-Graphics Only"

[Garak]

"Troling and flaming" is a relative thing, isn't it. It's ok to suggest we throw civil liberties out the window based on luird speculation, but trying to point out fact is trolling? Ask yourself, would someone like Mohammed Atta, just off the boat, have an intricate enough knowledge of the back roads of Virginia and Maryland to do this? Would these attacks by their very nature, given the likelihood of capture, lend themselves to something terrorists would want? After all, a suicide bomber won't be arrested, and he would kill many more people in one shot. If this was REALLY Al Qaeda, why doesn't one of them just walk into a Michael's and blow everyone up? Why drop a Tarot card with a run of the mill sociopath-type message? Why even drop a Tarot card?

Guess what, folks - a mosque being five miles away doesn't mean jack. I bet there's also a synogogue, and an ashram, and a church of Satan somewhere around there too.

[tomkat]

ok, that did it !

[Kip Lange]

btw, concensus of opinion here seems to think tarot might just have originated in the ME.

I actually have the history on this, but I think the Tarot Card is so...dumb...a clue...we want hard forensic evidence, not something some kid may have left because he saw it in "Apocalypse Now". If you really want the history of the Tarot (which is not exclusive to ME), let me know, I'll dig it up and post it for you, but it's dull as all hell.

--KL

P.S. It is, however, fun to hear the media debate on the merits of "tar-o" or "tar-ete". :-)

[madison10]

Here is a scenario from radio talk-show (Glenn Beck to be exact):

There are two sets of shooting teams in competition ie you take a shot, I have to take a shot of equal difficulty...they would go back and forth taking turns. As long as the media is broadcasting the details of what is occurring the two teams don't even have to contact each other. Like a video game. The boy was extra points? Thus the "I AM GOD" card? Maybe they met on the 'net. Maybe this is a stupid scenario.

Question on this: Were all the shots from the EXACT same gun, or were they from the same type of gun? I've read both.

Everyone is throwing out opinions, I might as well add another.

Terrorism certainly cannot be ruled out, IMO.

[ellery]

Thanks for the intel. Follow up question: are mosques open to all, at all times? Or do they only open for prayers and on Fridays?

[tomkat]

sorry lady, dinasour made me do that !

please don't burn my mosque down just 'cause i got carried away this once ...

[texasbluebell]

Most people aren't ruling out a home grown nut, but we shouldn't rule out ME terror either. It could go either way at this point.

[Miss Marple]

I am trying to keep an open mind here about who it is.

However, I must point out to you that you are reasoning based on several fallacies:

1. Tarot cards originated in the Middle East and are very popular in Turkey.

2. Although we have had sniper killers in the US, they have been deranged shooters shooting from one location (Texas Tower) or shooting a particular type of person (Zebra Killer in California).

3. Al Qaeda does NOT take public credit, unlike Hamas. This was extensively discussed the last few days and also at the time of the September 11 attacks.

4. Al Qaeda doesn't simply go in for BIG attacks. They have trained their cell members in a variety of methods, including this one. The evidence for this is training tapes and manuals that were found in Afghanistan.

5. The Portland cell was training in marksmanship at a gravel pit, which is why the authorities became suspicious of them and eventually traced their travel records to discover they had gone to Afghanistan.

6. The Buffalo cell had small arms and one rifle, as I understand.Neither cell had bomb-making material.

7. This type of sniper attack has been used against the Israelis by the Palestinians. It was also used by the mujahdeen in Afghanistan.

All in all, although none of this proves international terrorism, it certainly means it should be considered.

[Kip Lange]

Yes and no. I believe he never took credit, but praised the "martyrs to God" who took it down. *Did* they take credit for the Cole?

I'm also amongst the people who get ticked at the talking heads who insist al Qaeda always makes a big stink out of taking credit -- ain't that Hamas? ;-)

--KL

[John H K]

Son of Sam, Zodiac Killer, Long Island Sniper. Maybe not the same random victims but victims of sniper shooting all the same.

Son of Sam and Zodiac weren't snipers.

However, there HAVE been serial random snipers (rifle from a distance). Thomas Dillon randomly shot 5 hunters and fishermen in Eastern Ohio in the early 90s...he was a gun-obsessed nut, fired so many rounds a year he damaged his hearing, would drive around randomly shooting hundreds of dogs and cats (but had a regular job and family).

I also ran across an intriguing reference in the Washington Post to a serial sniper around Penn Station in Manhattan in 1984 that was never caught; killed 1, wounded 7. Only found ONE other internet reference to it, one of the victims...apparently case was completely bungled by the cops, resulted in 40 being fired. Very odd I can't find more on it.

I think there have been more of these random sniper murders than people think, but since no one of these guys has accumulated a big kill total, they tend not to turn up on one of the thousands of "true crime" ghoulish sites cataloging serial killers...and the fact that they don't involve sick sexual mutilations or anything also makes them less interesting to those web sites.

[Man of the Right]

Either this guy/team represent the return of the Invisible Man or people have their head up the wazoo in DC. One time in 11 one would expect 1 person out of 5 million to turn their head toward the report of a deer rifle and get at least a partial description. The Al-Qaeda or Angry White Man Scarlet Pimpernel is on the loose, and the police are baffled.

[texasbluebell]

If this was REALLY Al Qaeda, why doesn't one of them just walk into a Michael's and blow everyone up?

Please see the link posted in #558. AQ is not the only group in the area.

[Route66]

I'm very interested in the Bloodhound information. Heard on Fox that the hounds picked up on a scent 'near' the victim and took off.

Unless this guy got really close to this woman [or a bloodhound can pick up a scent that came off a speeding bullit ; ) ] do you think it might be possible that this guy physically cased this lot over the weekend?

They said the scent went from the area the woman was lying to the darker lot area across the street, then down the ramp toward the beltway. This guy could have picked his spot over the weekend - went from the area he picked to shoot from across the street to the lot to check out the line of site and what others could see from there at night. Then he could have walked back across the road from the lot directly through his potential line of sight and left.

[areafiftyone]

Close up only because he used a handgun. That's the only difference and Zodiac and the Son of Sam both taunted police by sending them letters. Son of Sam was even more brazen than this sniper - he walked right up to the car and shot them. Sniper killers all have their own MO but they still fall into the Serial category.

[tomkat]

personally, i think the tarot thing is either a deliberate misdirection,
something that blew in from the neighborhood by the time the cops found that spot,
or that that entire shot was a copycat ...

$0.02

[Garak]

The University of Texas killer, Charles Whitman, is the most famou example of one of these killers, though he didn't really do it "serially."

[tomkat]

MM's much nicer than me, and a better writer too ...

[hankbrown]

Because while a big hit is big news, quietly and efficiently offering up a different victim everyday is in some ways more terrifying for those living with it.

[Garak]

And your opinion means so much to me, tomkat.

[demlosers]

What's happened internationally has done nothing to change the fact that, like most serial killings, this is just another home grown nut.

You don't know that for a fact. It's plausible it could be a terrorist and it's also plausible it may be another wacko serial killer.