(Inspired by the "Honorary" Iraqi FReepers,) It's Time to End Thoughtless Attacks on Muslim on FR

You intimated that I would not rise in protest from the pew if the equivalent of 'imams' in the Catholic church- the priest- preached, or justified, evils such as murder of non-believers in the name of our religion. I was making a comparison between that which is wrong in the Catholic church( protecting and defending homosexual,pedophiliac priests) and Muslim imams preaching what offends 'good' Muslims. I WOULD rise to protest, as would many others. I know of no churches where priests openly encourage or defend abortion-the comparison you made in an earlier post. The Muslims CAN do the same. After all, a prelate encouraging you to KILL for your religion should offend 'good' Muslims, should it not?
A grassroots movement is necessary to change what is evil in both religions.
I used the confrontation with my parish priest to prove that I did not- and do not- hesitate to confront what I believe is wrong; regardless of who is doing it.

As for the baby's baptism. Further discussion is off topic, but yes- I think it is evil and highly hypocritical for the
Church to refuse baptism of ANY baby. A soul is a soul. With wholesale baptisms of 'innocent souls' in primitive countries , whose parents have no belief in the religion, being a desirable policy, I fail to see how ANY priest could turn away an innocent soul in an American church.

My point is religion should be dynamic. All can go astray, from the top, if the followers are not vigilant and courageous enough to fight the corruption, or abandon the religion if it becomes something they do not believe or support. If the Muslim religion is not a centralized one- as is the Catholic church, with the Vatican- but one of thousands of individual imams and mosques serving as the authorities for their congregations, it should be that much easier for individual believers to take back their mosques from the 'bad' version of Islam.
Are there any 'reform' mosques, as there are reform synagogues? If not- if the majority of Muslims do NOT follow this violent,dark ages version of Islam- why not?

But the tide IS turning. Only time will tell how fast it goes, but it IS going

What tide is turning? The tide that MAKES us concede to all things muslim in this country that was created with the blessing of God?

You know full well that in America we tolerate others' beliefs. Why do you feel the need to ignore the failings of the muslims in their reactions?

"I agree that it's just not right that so many Muslims are unwilling to criticize the terrorists as vehemently as they should. I blame it on equal parts cowardice, fear and unwillingness to invoke God's wrath on them if it turns out they're wrong.

Why do you come on here and tell the victims they must not expect any consideration from the muslims yet they are supposed to fully ignore the teachings of that religion, the different interpretations and blindly accept that they mean no harm to those with different beliefs? How do you know they mean no harm?

The muslim religion appeals to those in society that are drawn to violence because it provides a very effective cover for their urges. They are told they do god's work if they kill infidels. They are told it is ok to marry children as their own prophet - Mohammed had a child wife.

Why do you think they can recruit so many in the prisons? Because the religion justifies violence against others. It does not teach "love your neighbor as yourself" - it teaches "do not put yourselves under the power of an infidel", never consider them friends, and claims rewards for those who kill innocents.

Now how do you interpret these points differently?

"I would agree, with one small reservation: how come american muslims (non-iraqis) are so non-vocal in condemning islamic radicals?"

That's not the case at all.

American Muslims were among the first to denounce the attacks of 9/11.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 9/11/01

U.S. MUSLIMS CONDEMN TERRORIST ATTACKS

(WASHINGTON, DC - 9/11/2001) - The American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC)*, today condemned the apparent terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.

MUSLIMS ASK PRESIDENT BUSH TO UNIFY NATION AFTER ATTACKS
Islamic leaders offer comments on president's address to the nation

(WASHINGTON, DC - 9/11/2001) - Leaders of national American Muslim groups sent a letter this evening to President Bush asking that he use his address to the nation to unify America in the face of today's horrific terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C. (These same Muslim leaders will be available after the speech for comments.)

The joint letter to the president read in part:

"American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today’s terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime. It is not the time for speculative accusations and stereotypical generalizations that can only serve to harm the innocent and to endanger our society and its civil liberties.

"We hope that the perpetrators of these crimes will be apprehended immediately and swiftly brought to justice. Muslims stand with all other Americans who, on this sad day, feel a sense of tremendous grief and loss."

Signatories to the letter included American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Muslim Public Affairs Council, Muslim American Society, Islamic Society of North American, Islamic Circle of North America, Muslim Alliance in North America, and American Muslims for Jerusalem.

Americans are Americans, their religion aside.

Here's one more link for you:

Scholars Of Islam And The Tragedy Of 9/11

>> A_Turk, can you tell us which parts of Islam are absolutely berserk and deserving of our disdain? Can you tell us which parts are balanced?

Well, that's very hard to say.. Can't say be weary of the ignorant, since many of them are very nice people. Can't say beware of the conservative, 'coz they, for the most part, keep to themselves.

I'd probably say that those who have been brainwashed by politically motivated clerics, of whatever religion, are dangerous.

The problem you have is not with Islam, but with politics. It's just that your enemies are mostly influenced by Islam. Troubled diplomacy regarding Iran, Palestine, Lybia, Pakistan, Iraq have earned the US many political enemies. These enemies use religion to rally those who will allow themselves to be rallied. Most don't, but some will. You see the same here on FR, where some Christians rally around religious campaigns, even though the whole thing is political.

When religion is used for political purposes, watch out! That is why we have seperated religion from the state in Turkey..

If the American muslim communities expect kind, and sincere words here in FR, or for that matter from Americans who felt the pains of the victims of 9.11, and recently in the DC area, the American muslims must act, big time to rid themselves of radical islam. I was encouraged by the Iraqi muslim's participation in the DC FR rally in support for war against saddam, but they are a miniscule percent of the American muslim population. Thus far, I have not seen any significant actions from the American Muslims supporting the fight against islamic terrorism, they have been very quiet in that front.

"American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today’s terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime.

Read as: "yeah, we're sorry that happened and all. This is how *you* should handle it Mr. President; don't ask us muslims to DO A DAMN THING about the hijacking of our religion. Yeah, say Islam is Peace... that'll work!"

Perhaps I missed it in the voluminous post-September 11th/Islam reading that's available:

when was the FATWA ordered on UBL, et al?

". . .words are cheap, actions demonstrate what you really believe."

"What tide is turning?"

The tide of public opinion in the Dar al Islam. Public criticism of these things is growing. Slowly, but steadily, people are speaking up and speaking out against it. Again - not as loudly, nor as often, as I would like, but it is gaining speed.

As for the rest of your comments: stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said people should not be angry at the radical Muslims who've acted, aided or abetted acts of terror. They should be, and I am.

What I AM saying is that there's a lot more to Islam than the monsters its more harsh doctrines can breed. We have enemies there, but also allies and people on a fence we need to get over to our side. That's the whole point of this thread.

J

Of course we have people we need to get to our side, however, we also have enemies in our midst who will hide in sleeper cells until time for their action. I would suspect that while hiding, it would be to their advantage to be able to keep their jobs and their positions so that their "duty" can be carried out as planned.

Are we to believe they will not try and convince us they are pacifists and to be treated as equals? There are sleeper cells, there are people in place to attack us at a future time, they will be hidden until that time.

It is not my fault that the radical Muslims have chosen to attack and kill Americans. It is not my fault that other muslims may or may not believe the same "interpretation". It is not my fault that I cannot tell the difference between people that look alike, have the same religion.

It is up to the peaceful muslims to change things - not me because my safety is at risk. Why am I to risk my safety to insure they feel no repercussions from what is going on in their religion?

You need to be talking to the Muslims - not me. I am merely one of the targets here, therefore, my safety and fears are of no concern to you.

I think they're all wrong. I don't think "Man" has ANY idea what the "One true faith" is...I think "Man" has the ability to act in a "God Like" mannor...If he does, he's rewarded...If he doesn't, he's punished.

People worship God and hope to one day live in eternity with God.

It does not matter what each man "decides" is correct because man is not the God. Man does not change anything other than whether he receives his own salvation or not.

God decides what is correct and he has revealed it to man in the Bible. If man accepts God and follows God's instructions in the New Testament (not manmade creeds, prophets, added words to God's Bible), then man is saved. These instructions advise accepting Jesus and baptism for the remission of sins for salvation.

Now - to ignore the Bible and God's instructions is man's choice.

Yet, if man does not believe these instructions and instead believes the Version A created by John Doe, or believes some but prefers Version B, man is merely saying God is not the one doing the saving but man saves himself when he determines what he feels is correct for him.

Does he really then expect God to change and adjust God's plan for salvation to "fit" man's version? What about his neighbor that believes in Version A? Is God to change and adjust to this version too?

Or, is God to say "I sent Jesus Christ - my Son - to die on the cross for your sins and all you have to do is accept Jesus as your saviour, be baptised for the remission of your sins and you are saved. Why - because then you are pure enough to abide with Me in Heaven. Yet - you feel this is not needed - so, ok, whatever works for you."

Man tends to feel that he is the one determining what will get him into heaven. Not so. It has been set in place by God and God is the one making the decisions. Man can only chose whether he accepts God or not.

I thought I cleared up that misunderstanding. I said my doubts concerned the numbers of people who would rise in protest of evil. Of course I accept your statement that you would. Again, in my opinion, the killing of innocents is evil, yet we have 'pro-choice churchs' who endorse the right to kill the unborn yet the people don't rise in protest in the numbers required to force change in the position.

To take your example, which is, perhaps a more pure example since there is very little support for child rape as compared to abortion, people in great numbers still attend the Catholic church despite the exposure of the decades of pedophilia. Where are the people, in sufficient numbers, turning their backs on the church to cause change?

The above doesn't even touch the issue of the ties between the governments of Moslem countries and the religion itself. The Catholics do not face death or discrimination at the hands of the government if they speak against the Church as Moslems would . They could leave the church without risk of retribution or being ostracized. They can also speak out in protest in public without serious fear of bodily harm. Yet they do not.

My position stands, we can call for the Moslems to rise and protest and change their religion but we'd best not hold our breath until they do since experience, in this country has shown many people will accept evil, and considering the numbers of babies that have been slaughtered, an equal evil, when it is endorsed by their religious leaders.

Sorry Mac.

Wish I had the time to summarize the nature and the history of Islam.

You want to act like a moron? be my guest.
There is nothing "thoughtless" about it.

Perhaps later when I have time.
Suffice to say that nothing has happened since 911 to attenuate my hostility to Islam.

Quite the reverse, actually, after reviewing history and catching up with the increasing contemporary documentation of this plague.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.