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TWA Flight 800 - Residue, Blasts Linked
Dayton Daily News ^ | Christopher Montgomery and Tim Tresslar

Posted on 11/07/2002 4:27:52 PM PST by Asmodeus

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To: Asmodeus
When I awake in the morning, every morning, the sun is shining. When I go to sleep at night, the sun has set. Ergo, I am responsible for the sun rising and setting.

All the investigations in the world that show the possibility that an event, such as an electrical short, could explode a fuel tank on a passenger jet, will not make it so in the case of TWA 800. Too many witnesses, many of them trained observers, saw a missile rise toward the jet. Whose missile, and why, we can only speculate on. But the fact is that a missile hit TWA 800.
61 posted on 11/07/2002 8:35:01 PM PST by JoeA
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To: Asmodeus
Please cite your reference source URL for the readers, not all of whom are "shootdown" conspiracy theorists.

Well I give you a hint. It's not from Asmodeus's site. Follow the link and read. You'll see that the report is from the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. The FULL report is available in .PDF format by clicking below.

International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Final Report (Full Report)

Is that better now Asmodeus?

62 posted on 11/07/2002 8:40:36 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: JoeA
I'm sorry JoeA. Unless you can provide a URL for Asmodeus and for your own benefit, he will simply not accept the possibility that the sun rises every morning and sets every evening. You'll just have to do better. Hearsay and personal experiences don't rise to the necessary level of scientific and verifiable proof, to say nothing of silly html embellishments so popular with Asmodeus.
63 posted on 11/07/2002 8:41:21 PM PST by coloradan
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To: Asmodeus
Still shilling for your employer, I see.
64 posted on 11/07/2002 8:43:25 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Asmodeus
Please cite your reference source URL for the readers, not all of whom are "shootdown" conspiracy theorists.

LOL! More classic disinformation. FormerLurker provided a link in the very post to which this question was aimed!

You really have a knack for this.

65 posted on 11/07/2002 8:43:40 PM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
LOL! More classic disinformation. FormerLurker provided a link in the very post to which this question was aimed!

Like I said, Asmodeus is a stand up comic at night.. LOL

66 posted on 11/07/2002 8:53:38 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: coloradan
"to the extent I can show others your disinformation tactics, I will."

Everybody who doesn't agree with the "shootdown" conspiracy theorists are government agent disinformationalist engaged in the felonious criminal coverup of heinous crimes, aren't they, including the entire U.S. congress, the press, members of American armed forces (many of whom are now in harms way) and the millions of others who turned their backs on your "shootdown" case years ago.

67 posted on 11/07/2002 8:56:27 PM PST by Asmodeus
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To: JoeA
"But the fact is that a missile hit TWA 800."

A "fact" based entirely on nothing but eyewitness testimony. Here is another fact, only 59 eyewitnesses reported seeing "a streak of light" rise from the ocean into the sky and I don't believe any of them reported seeing it hit TWA800. Here is another fact...recently millions of folks on the East Coast spent several terrifying weeks looking for a single white man in white van who eyewitnesses reported was responsible for a series of sniper shootings. And one final fact...the shooter ended up being two black men in a dark blue sedan. Tell me again why eyewitness testimony should be relied upon without any other supporting evidence?

68 posted on 11/07/2002 9:03:47 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Asmodeus
You are putting words in my mouth. Why did you demand that FormerLurker post a cite in the very post in which he did so? And why did you ask "for instance" and then not answer my reply?

Irrespective of anyone else, you are doing nothing other than spewing disinformation here - straw men arguments, changing the subject, red herrings. You ask questions but don't answer them.

Just think of all the people out there who have no opinion of TWA 800 one way or another, who come to this thread and see the question raised for the first time. You are the pall-bearer for the spontaneous explosion scenario. How convincing do you think you can possibly be when all you have to offer is disinformation and misinformation? Your citations are to your own website, FL's cite is to a professional organization. There is at least one participant to this thread who has a direct relative who saw the shootdown... but this means nothing to you.

Your ability to deny reality is exceeded only by the democratic pundits walking around in stunned silence after the election. (Although they, at least, realize now that something, somehow, somewhere, has gone horribly wrong.)

69 posted on 11/07/2002 9:08:17 PM PST by coloradan
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To: azhenfud
TWA-800 was bound for Paris , France. I would like to think that since it was flying over the Atlantic Ocean it would have been totally full of fuel, but I don't know. Anybody out there a transatlantic jetliner pilot that can fill us in??
70 posted on 11/07/2002 9:09:00 PM PST by timestax
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To: coloradan
You're missing the whole point of my analogy. You think that a metal box prevents internal explosions, which is clearly ridiculous. According to the article, conductive residues formed on the FQIS wiring. For some unknown reason, electrical energy entered on the FQIS wiring, travelled through the conducting residues, and heated them up enough to cause the fuel-air mixture to ignite.

They also don't have mists or vapors of highly volatile fuel - except in the vicinity of an impact, explosion, or other energetic mechanical event.

Not that it will make any difference ... but ... you might want to read the CalTech report on JetA and ignition. It says that, "Hundreds of experiments documented in Nestor, Ott, and the Caltech studies demonstrate that an explosion can be produced in a quiescent mixture of Jet A vapor in air".

71 posted on 11/07/2002 9:12:03 PM PST by mikegi
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To: Rokke
Your own post discredits your challenge.

There were one or two original statements about white vans in 13 shootings, and people desperately searched for them in the hopes of finding the killer. There was also a statement of a dark sedan but this was preempted and therefore suppressed by the first ones.

But you yourself admit that there were 59 different witnesses, most independent, which all agreed something went up from the ocean, on one single event, prior to the crash.

You might try to figure the odds of a one or two reports of an irrelevent sightings in 13 events, compared to 59 irrelevent or erroneus sightings in one single event.

72 posted on 11/07/2002 9:13:32 PM PST by coloradan
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To: timestax
There is no dispute about the CWT being mostly empty on TWA 800. The flight that way has a jet-stream assistance and doesn't need the fuel to make the trip.

However, there is a discrepancy between the amount signed off at takeoff and the amount indicated by the flight data recorder at the time of the crash, which Donaldson has claimed provides evidence of the shootdown scenario.

73 posted on 11/07/2002 9:17:18 PM PST by coloradan
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To: FormerLurker
Also, how about James Kallstrom, magically morphing that 25 knot speedboat into a helicopter.. Why did he go for telling a fib..disinformation??...,could be..but why, it's not his business to put out disinformation is it. Unless it came from ole Bildo Clinton, then that's ok, right?!
74 posted on 11/07/2002 9:17:34 PM PST by timestax
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To: willyone
You need to take a science course. Apples and oranges. Not even close to being the same thing. What does an internal combustion engine have to do with the article?

I was showing by analogy that a metal box doesn't prevent ignition of contained fuel, which is what was implied in the post I was replying to.

75 posted on 11/07/2002 9:17:58 PM PST by mikegi
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To: Rokke
Oops. It wasn't 59 witnesses. Only 40 saw a streak of light rise from the ocean. That was out of a total of only 96 eyewitnesses who claimed they saw a streak of light originate "from the surface." 6 of those 96 said the streak originated in the air, and 10 said it came from land. But my original point stands...the evidence for a missile is limited to nothing but eyewitness reports. And I think we've all witnessed how reliable eyewitness reports can be.
76 posted on 11/07/2002 9:17:59 PM PST by Rokke
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To: FormerLurker
"There are MANY ways we could prevent terrorist from carrying out their acts of terror. One MAJOR problem we have is the policies that have been adopted that ENCOURAGE illegal aliens to enter our country on work visas. Many times, foreign companies apply for MANY more visas than they need. What exactly they do with these extra visas is anyone's guess, BUT, one wouldn't have to stretch very far in order to see that a visa on the blackmarket might be a very lucrative ticket into the US for a terrorist. Immigration laws are NOT enforced in relation to this problem. It is just asking for trouble, and it is curious that we have such a lack of enforcement when politicians clamour for "homeland security" and insist that war is the only solution."

I agree.

"Perhaps we should all take a deep breath and ask ourselves whether it is better that we analyze what has happened and know the truth, or believe in falsehoods.."

And it's only common sense, since all of the "shootdown" conspiracy theorists are amateur witness report analysts and since none of you have been able to present the public with any physical evidence of a missile shootdown (or bomb) after over six years of effort, that you would want an experienced trial lawyer of your own choosing to review your "shootdown" witness reports and this to provide you with his analysis.

77 posted on 11/07/2002 9:26:17 PM PST by Asmodeus
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To: mikegi
For some unknown reason, electrical energy entered on the FQIS wiring, travelled through the conducting residues, and heated them up enough to cause the fuel-air mixture to ignite.

Considering that you can extinguish burning rags in jet fuel, this doesn't seem too likely. They used capacitor sparks many, many times more energetic than the highest energy spark they can argue could have been present to ignite vapor. Why?

Not that it will make any difference ... but ... you might want to read the CalTech report on JetA and ignition. It says that, "Hundreds of experiments documented in Nestor, Ott, and the Caltech studies demonstrate that an explosion can be produced in a quiescent mixture of Jet A vapor in air".

I have read it, and it is Clintonian. Yes, you can ignite the quiescent vapor in air if it's hot enough - but TWA 800 wasn't. What temperature the CWT was likely at was measured and is reported in Donaldson's interim report, and was much cooler than the NTSB said. Furthermore, if such vapor can be ingited and made to explode - then why did the explosion tests in a chamber and at Bruntingthorpe have to be done with propane and/or hydrogen? A: because jet fuel isn't so explosive after all.

In any case, the questions remain about why the nose gear doors were first off the plane, why the first class passengers were more injured and burned than the cabin passengers who were over the tank whose explosion allegedly caused the crash, how "fist sized holes" got into first-class seat-backs, why the radar data was seized by the FBI, what did the witnesses see, what was the red residue and why did the NTSB lie about their tests of it in a court of law, etc.

78 posted on 11/07/2002 9:26:37 PM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
"For instance your red herring arguments. You have repeatedly failed to answer objections of mine.."

For instance?

79 posted on 11/07/2002 9:30:58 PM PST by Asmodeus
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To: Asmodeus
Nice use of underlines, italics and red lettering. But so much for the content: radar data, red residue, the wreckage distribution patterns and first-to-depart items in the breakup sequence, the FDR data (including the lined-out data at the first presentation) - the Heidi Krieger photo, fist-sized holes in the seat backs, virtually all the victims having shrapnel (that was eagerly confiscated by the FBI), Barium and Zirconium residue in the wreckage ... all of these things are physical evidence buy you continue to deny this.
80 posted on 11/07/2002 9:32:05 PM PST by coloradan
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