Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

THE FALL OF ORTHODOX ENGLAND
romanitas.ru ^ | Second Edition, 2000 | Vladimir Moss

Posted on 11/22/2002 10:22:39 PM PST by Destro

THE FALL OF ORTHODOX ENGLAND

Vladimir Moss

It is true what I say: should the Christian faith weaken, the kingship will immediately totter.
Archbishop Wulfstan of York, The Institutes of Polity, 4 (1023).

INTRODUCTION: ENGLAND, ROME, CONSTANTINOPLE, NORMANDY

On October 14, 1066, at Hastings in southern England, the last Orthodox king of England, Harold II, died in battle against Duke William of Normandy. William had been blessed to invade England by the Roman Pope Alexander in order to bring the English Church into full communion with the “reformed Papacy”; for since 1052 the English archbishop had been banned and denounced as schismatic by Rome. The result of the Norman Conquest was that the English Church and people were integrated into the heretical “Church” of Western, Papist Christendom, which had just, in 1054, fallen away from communion with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, represented by the Eastern Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Thus ended the nearly five-hundred-year history of the Anglo-Saxon Orthodox Church, which was followed by the demise of the still older Celtic Orthodox Churches in Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

This small book is an account of how this came to pass.

The Beginning of the End

Now the English had been perhaps the most fervent “Romanists” of all the peoples of Western Europe. This devotion sprang from the fact that it was to Rome, and specifically to Pope St. Gregory the Great and his disciples, that the Angles, Saxons and Jutes owed their conversion to the Faith in the late sixth and early seventh centuries. From that time English men and women of all classes and conditions poured across the Channel in a well-beaten path to the tombs of the Apostles in Rome, and a whole quarter of the city was called “Il Borgo Saxono” because of the large number of English pilgrims it accomodated. English missionaries such as St. Boniface of Germany carried out their work as the legates of the Roman Popes. And the voluntary tax known as “Peter’s Pence” which the English offered to the Roman see was paid even in the difficult times of the Viking invasions, when it was the English themselves who were in need of alms.

However, the “Romanity” to which the English were so devoted was not the Franco-Latin, Roman Catholicism of the later Middle Ages. Rather, it was the Greco-Roman Romanitas or Romiosini of Orthodox Catholicism. And the spiritual and political capital of Romanitas until the middle of the fifteenth century was not Old Rome in Italy, but the New Rome of Constantinople. Thus when King Ethelbert of Kent was baptized by St. Augustine in 597, “he had entered,” as Fr. Andrew Phillips writes, “‘Romanitas’, Romanity, the universe of Roman Christendom, becoming one of those numerous kings who owed allegiance, albeit formal, to the Emperor in New Rome…” Indeed, as late as the tenth century the cultural links between England and Constantinople remained strong, as we see, for example, in King Athelstan’s calling himself basileus and curagulus, titles ascribed to the Byzantine emperor.

We may tentatively point to the murder of King Edward the Martyr in 979 as the beginning of the end of Orthodox England. Only six years before, his father, King Edgar the Peaceable, had been anointed and crowned as head of the Anglo-Saxon “empire” in Bath Abbey, next to the still considerable remains of Imperial Rome. And in the same year he had been rowed on the River Dee at Chester by six or eight sub-kings, including five Welsh and Scottish rulers and one ruler of the Western Isles. But then the anti-monastic reaction of King Edward’s reign was followed by the murder of the Lord’s anointed. “No worse deed for the English was ever done that this,” said the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle; and while it was said that there was “great rejoicing” at the coronation of St. Edward’s half-brother, Ethelred “the Unready”, St. Dunstan, archbishop of Canterbury, sorrowfully prophesied great woes for the nation in the coming reign.

He was right; for not only were the English successively defeated by Danish pagan invaders and forced to pay ever larger sums in “Danegeld”, but the king himself, betrayed by his leading men and weighed down by his own personal failures, was forced to flee abroad in 1013. The next year he was recalled by the English leaders, both spiritual and lay, who declared that “no lord was dearer to them than their rightful lord, if only he would govern his kingdom more justly than he had done in the past.” But the revival was illusory; further defeats followed, and in 1017, after the deaths both of King Ethelred and of his son Edmund Ironside, the Danish Canute was made king of all the English. Canute converted to the faith of his new Christian subjects; and the period of the Danish kings (1017-1042) created less of a disruption in the nation’s spiritual life than might have been expected. Nevertheless, it must have seemed that God’s mercy had at last returned to His people when, in 1043, the Old English dynasty of Alfred the Great was restored in the person of King Ethelred’s son Edward, known to later generations as “the Confessor”.

It is with the life of King Edward that our narrative begins.

(Excerpt) Read more at romanitas.ru ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: belongsinreligion; england; europeanchristians; notanewstopic
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-145 next last

Celtic and Old English Saints of the Orthodox Church

1 posted on 11/22/2002 10:22:39 PM PST by Destro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Destro
For a good short account of Harold, read "the Golden Warrior."
2 posted on 11/22/2002 10:45:42 PM PST by AmericanVictory
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AmericanVictory
Golden Warrior by Hope Muntz
3 posted on 11/22/2002 10:57:27 PM PST by Destro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Interesting post, but the piece ignores the fact that the Christian Church thrived in Britain centuries before St. Augustine. Two British bishops (representing hundreds of others) were at the Council of Arles in 314 AD. Britain's Promartyr, St. Alban, is generally believed to have been martyred in 209 AD.

And for the diehard romantics, there's always that legend about St. Joseph of Arimathea establishing the Church in Glastonbury just a few years after the Ascension...

4 posted on 11/22/2002 11:08:59 PM PST by MikalM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MikalM
This article does not ignore the Celtic Church: Thus ended the nearly five-hundred-year history of the Anglo-Saxon Orthodox Church, which was followed by the demise of the still older Celtic Orthodox Churches in Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Also check out the link to the revived Celtic Orthodox Church:


5 posted on 11/22/2002 11:18:53 PM PST by Destro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Destro; crazykatz; don-o; JosephW; lambo; MarMema; MoJoWork_n; newberger; Petronski; ...
King Harold's family later fled to Kiev where his daughter would marry Vladimir Monomakh, Prince of Kiev.
6 posted on 11/22/2002 11:23:04 PM PST by FormerLib
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Thank you. I read it over 40 years ago and could not recall the author's name.
7 posted on 11/23/2002 12:00:27 AM PST by AmericanVictory
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Destro; katnip
Thanks Destro. And Many Years to you also!
8 posted on 11/23/2002 4:41:32 AM PST by MarMema
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Bookmarked!
9 posted on 11/23/2002 5:03:05 AM PST by happygrl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
bookmarked!
10 posted on 11/23/2002 7:42:12 AM PST by Wordsmith
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
bump for a later read
11 posted on 11/23/2002 8:22:21 AM PST by RedWhiteBlue
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
bump for later reading
12 posted on 11/23/2002 10:37:52 AM PST by longtermmemmory
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Guess I missed that sentence. Yet it implies that the Church wasn't in Albion until the Saxon invasion, which again, is contradicted by St. Alban's martyrdom and other evidence.

On a related note: I belong to an Anglo-Catholic American Episcopal church, and have noted that in the last couple of years, the liturgy and general tone have gotten increasingly "Orthodox," especially during Easter weekend. Wonder if we're due for a revival of the Sarum Rite?

13 posted on 11/23/2002 10:45:11 AM PST by MikalM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: MikalM
On a related note: I belong to an Anglo-Catholic American Episcopal church, and have noted that in the last couple of years, the liturgy and general tone have gotten increasingly "Orthodox," especially during Easter weekend. Wonder if we're due for a revival of the Sarum Rite?

I too belong to a fairly Anglo-Catholic ECUSA parish. The ECUSA has multiple litugical options, and it's up to the the pastor as to which one the parish uses. Although the pastor will keep the Vestry happy, if he or she is smart.

14 posted on 01/04/2003 5:35:48 PM PST by RonF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: RonF
bump
15 posted on 03/17/2003 10:27:35 AM PST by TomSmedley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Destro
....for since 1052 the English archbishop had been banned and denounced as schismatic by Rome. The result of the Norman Conquest was that the English Church and people were integrated into the heretical “Church” of Western, Papist Christendom, which had just, in 1054, fallen away from communion with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, represented by the Eastern Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.

One thing major branches of religions never seem to tire of are turf wars.

16 posted on 07/07/2003 5:13:26 PM PDT by Pahuanui (when A Foolish Man Hears The tao, He Laughs Out Loud.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pahuanui
Got you to read it though!
17 posted on 07/07/2003 6:21:47 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Destro; Professional Engineer
thanks for the ping. Pinging PE.
18 posted on 01/05/2004 8:13:06 PM PST by msdrby (US Veterans: All give some, but some give all.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: msdrby
I see the old links are gone. Here is the new one.

Articles and resources relating to the history of the Orthodox Church in Ireland and throughout the British Isles

19 posted on 01/05/2004 9:23:39 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: msdrby
Western Saints Icon Gallery

Icons of St. Brendan the Navigator, Founder of Clonfert Abbey, Father of 3,000 Monks, Patron of Sailors

Icons of St. Patrick, the Apostle of Ireland

St. Augustine of Canterbury, Apostle of England

20 posted on 01/05/2004 9:29:25 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Destro
I guess they'll soon replace the King/Queen with an Imam
21 posted on 03/07/2004 10:34:51 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.ArmorforCongress.com......................Send a Freeper to Congress!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Destro
English Orthodox Church - in Greece

Saint Andrew

Saint Andrew is the Patron Saint of Scotland, and St. Andrew's Day is celebrated by Scots around the world on the 30th November. The flag of Scotland is the Cross of St. Andrew, and this is widely displayed as a symbol of national identity.

The "Order of Saint Andrew" or the "Most Ancient Order of the Thistle" is an order of Knighthood which is restricted to the King or Queen and sixteen others. It was established by James VII of Scotland in 1687.

Very little is really known about St. Andrew himself. He was thought to have been a fisherman in Galilee (now part of Israel), along with his elder brother Simon Peter (Saint Peter). Both became followers (apostles) of Jesus Christ, founder of the Christian religion.

St. Andrew is said to have been responsible for spreading the tenets of the Christian religion though Asia Minor and Greece. Tradition suggests that St. Andrew was put to death by the Romans in Patras, Southern Greece by being pinned to a cross (crucified). The diagonal shape of this cross is said to be the basis for the Cross of St. Andrew which appears on the Scottish Flag.

St. Andrews bones were entombed, and around 300 years later were moved by Emperor Constantine (the Great) to his new capital Constantinople (now Istambul in Turkey). Legend suggests that a Greek Monk (although others describe him as an Irish assistant of St. Columba) called St. Rule (or St. Regulus) was warned in a dream that St. Andrews remains were to be moved and was directed by an angel to take those of the remains which he could to the "ends of the earth" for safe-keeping. St. Rule dutifully followed these directions, removing a tooth, an arm bone, a kneecap and some fingers from St. Andrew's tomb and transporting these as far away as he could. Scotland was close to the extremities of the know world at that time and it was here that St. Rule was shipwrecked with his precious cargo.

St. Rule is said to have come ashore at a Pictish settlement on the East Coast of Scotland and this later became St. Andrews. Thus the association of St. Andrew with Scotland was said to have begun.

Perhaps more likely than the tale of St. Rule's journey is that Acca, the Bishop of Hexham, who was a reknown collector of relics, brought the relics of St. Andrew to St. Andrews in 733. There certainly seems to have been a religious centre at St. Andrews at that time, either founded by St. Rule in the 6th century or by a Pictish King, Ungus, who reigned from 731 - 761.

Whichever tale is true, the relics were placed in a specially constructed chapel. This chapel was replaced by the Cathedral of St. Andrews in 1160, and St. Andrews became the religious capital of Scotland and a great centre for Medieval pilgrims who came to view the relics.

There are other legends of how St. Andrew and his remains became associated with Scotland, but there is little evidence for any of these, including the legend of St. Rule. The names still exist in Scotland today, including St. Rules Tower, which remains today amongst the ruins of St. Andrews Cathedral.

It is not known what happened to the relics of St. Andrew which were stored in St. Andrews Cathedral, although it is most likely that these were destroyed during the Scottish Reformation. The Protestant cause, propounded by Knox, Wishart and others, won out over Roman Catholism during the Reformation and the "idolatry of catholism", that is the Saints, relics, decoration of churches, were expunged during the process of converting the Roman Catholic churches of Scotland to the harsh simplicity of Knox's brand of Calvanism.

The place where these relics were kept within the Cathedral at St. Andrews is now marked by a plaque, amongst the ruins, for visitors to see.

The larger part of St. Andrew's remains were stolen from Constantinople in 1210 and are now to be found in Amalfi in Southern Italy. In 1879 the Archbishop of Amalfi sent a small piece of the Saint's shoulder blade to the re-established Roman Catholic community in Scotland.

In 1969, Gordon Gray, leader of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland was in Rome to be appointed the first Scottish Cardinal since the Reformation. Pope Paul VI gave him further relics of St. Andrew with the words "Saint Peter gives you his brother". These are now displayed in a reliquary in St. Mary's Roman Catholic Cathedral in Edinburgh.

22 posted on 03/07/2004 10:44:19 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Friendly question from an ignorant Protestant fellow:

In the pictures (icons?) of the saints you've shown...
What (if any) is the significance of the way in which the right hand is shown? (third finger
touching/nearly touching the thumb)
23 posted on 03/07/2004 11:28:18 PM PST by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: VOA
"In 1666, the Orthodox Church adopted the sign of the cross or the blessing gesture, formed by placing the ring finger on the thumb and bending the middle finger below the index finger. The index and middle fingers represent the two natures of Christ: the index is humanity; the middle is divinity. The middle finger, or divine nature, is bent below the human nature to show how the divine humbled himself to save us from our sin by taking human flesh. The positioning of the fingers symbolizes the Holy Trinity and also spells CC, the Greek abbreviation for Jesus Christ" ~~ Icons of Christ, http://hulmer.allegheny.edu/christ.html

That is the "blessing" gesture, which is different from the form one would use to cross one's-self when praying or what have you. That gesture is the thumb, index finger, and middle finger held raised together (symbolizing the Trinity), with the ring finger and little finger folded down against the palm (symbolizing the dual nature of Christ, very God and very Man).


24 posted on 03/08/2004 12:50:01 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Bump, been looking for this.
25 posted on 03/08/2004 12:55:51 AM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro; CARepubGal; MarMema; kosta50; FormerLib; drstevej
This article does not ignore the Celtic Church: Thus ended the nearly five-hundred-year history of the Anglo-Saxon Orthodox Church, which was followed by the demise of the still older Celtic Orthodox Churches in Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Yes, it mentions the Celtic Orthodox churches (centered on the monastic college of Iona between Ireland and Scotland, i.e. "Scotia Major" and "Scotia Minor"); but in simply calling these churches "Orthodox" the article does not give a complete picture of these Churches. To wit:

All of this is entirely true. But to what does all this add up? Well, it certainly adds up to a Church which was very "Eastern Orthodox" in form and style, albeit with a Gaelic vernacular and national flavor. But it overlooks an important area of analysis -- while very Greek in form and style, what did this "Celtic Orthodox" Church believe??

When one reads, in their own words or descriptions thereof, the actual beliefs of the Celtic Orthodox Church -- a VERY interesting picture emerges!!


BELIEFS of the Celtic Orthodox Church


So what have we here?! A Church founded by Greek Orthodox, with a Greek Orthodox ecclesiology and liturgy, a Greek Orthodox-styled clergy and monastic tradition.... but their Theological Beliefs -- Sola Scriptura, Justification through Faith Alone, The Death of Free Will in the Fall, Absolute Double Predestination, Symbolic Baptism, Symbolic Eucharist -- these are not the sort of Theological Beliefs one generally associates with Greek Orthodoxy. Why, if one had to put a denominational label on them -- you could scarcely do better than "Calvinist Presbyterian".

So we have these Gaelic Churches... Greek Orthodox in their founding origin, ecclesiology, liturgy, clerical orders -- but Calvinist Presbyterian in their Theology of the Bible, of Salvation, of the Sacraments...

A Church which is at once ORTHODOX in heart...
And yet at the same time PRESBYTERIAN in mind...

Orthodox... and yet Presbyterian also....

Best Regards, Orthodox Presbyterian

26 posted on 03/08/2004 10:49:43 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Destro; CARepubGal; MarMema; kosta50
I see, so postings on a Calvinist website that attempt to break the Celtic Orthodox onto the Calvinist wheel is supposed to be convincing in some way?

We've been broken on harsher wheels without denying the Faith.

I doubt that this will convince anyone...on our side, at least. ;-)
27 posted on 03/08/2004 10:59:50 AM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Interesting reading on those links, they certainly appear to be more Orthodox than anything else.
Man’s Vocation to Theosis

In the book of Genesis we read: ‘And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness’ (Gen 1.26). The Church Fathers, since ancient times (e.g., St Irenæus of Lyons), have distinguished between the Divine image and likeness. Man was created in the image of God, but he had yet to attain His likeness, to become like God, to achieve full theosis. However, man fell. The first man, Adam, prior to his fall, possessed an internal unity through God’s Grace (charis, gratia). He was turned Godward in love. But when he sinned, he lost this special Grace which had protected and united him. The good order of his soul was corrupted, and an unnatural and sinful man came into existence. The passions that overcame man were not outside forces which entered from without and which must be uprooted. Rather, they are energies of the soul which have been distorted and need to be transformed. In the human soul, there are three faculties: the intelligent (logistikon), appetitive (epithymetikon), and the incensive (thymikon). These three faculties must be directed toward God. When they turn away from Him, they become sinful passions. A sinful passion is therefore a movement of the soul contrary to nature.

The first man did not carry out the task which lay before him, ‘to cultivate and to keep’ (Gen 2.15), to strengthen himself in goodness and co-operate with Divine Grace to attain full deification and become ‘god’ by Grace. Because of the fall, the Divine economy for man had to be adapted; however, the goal for which man was created did not change. St. Athanasios of Alexandria states that God became man so that man might become god (‘On the Incarnation’). This teaching about theosis is to be found in the writings of the Church Fathers from the earliest times; it has Biblical origins.

The idea of personal and organic union between God and man – God dwelling in us and we in Him – is set forth in the Gospel according to St John and the Epistles of St Paul. The latter sees the Christian life mainly as a life in Christ. The same idea is expressed also in the Second Epistle of St Peter: ‘According as His Divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness... that by these ye might be partakers of the Divine Nature’ (II Pet 1.3-4). In Orthodox theology, man’s salvation and redemption mean his deification. This teaching must always be understood in the light of the distinction between God’s Essence and His Energies. Union with God means union with the Divine Energies, not with the Divine Essence.

An early witness to this teaching about the distinction between the Divine Essence and Energies is provided by St. Basil the Great, one of the Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century. In Letter 234, he writes: ‘We know our God from His Energies, but we do not claim that we can draw near to His Essence. For His Energies come down to us, but His Essence remains unapproachable.’ This teaching was later developed by one of the greatest theologians of the Orthodox Church, St. Gregory Palamas. The union between God and man is a true union, in which man retains his full personal integrity and personal characteristics without ceasing to be human.

Deification involves the body also. ‘Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit,’ wrote the Apostle Paul (I Cor 6.19). At the Resurrection, the bodies of the Saints will be transfigured by Divine Light, as the body of the Lord was transfigured on Mount Tabor. Even in this present life, some Saints have experienced the beginning of this visible and bodily glorification. In the Apophthegmata Patrum, a collection of sayings of the Desert Fathers, we read of Abba Pambo: ‘Just as Moses received the image of the glory of Adam, when his face was glorified, so the face of Abba Pambo shone like lightning, and he was as a king seated on his throne.’ The body is sanctified and transfigured together with the soul. The Divine Grace present in the Saints’ bodies during their lifetime on earth remains active in their Relics after their death, which is the reason behind the veneration of holy Relics in the Church.

By His Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection, and Founding of the Church, the Lord opened for His most precious creature, man, the path to his true goal, to theosis. In the Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation, a person receives the fullness of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. But he must still make this Grace ‘his own’; he must go through the process of acquiring the Holy Spirit. St. Mark the Ascetic says that Christ as Perfect God gave to the Baptised the perfect Grace of the Holy Spirit, which is revealed and manifested insofar as a person lives the Divine commandments (‘Instructions for Hesychasts’).

The call to sanctity and spiritual perfection is directed to all Christians and therefore all true Christians do everything that is in their power to acquire the Holy Spirit and to achieve inner unification and the healing of the passions. They discover that there are various steps of spiritual ascent to purification of the heart and illumination, when the intellect (nous) is united with the heart, in ceaseless prayer, to achieve theosis.

The process of spiritual advancement is not something mechanical or magical, however, as if by certain actions we can ‘force’ Divine Grace to effect our internal transformation. Divine Grace brings about this internal change when the time is ripe. But it can also be said that it works in correspondence with a person’s own struggle and efforts in repentance and humility. ‘If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?’ (Lk 11.13).The co-operation (synergy) of Divine Grace with a person’s own free will is thus required.


28 posted on 03/08/2004 11:05:30 AM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
With all due respect, the Protestants are known to twist history to justify their new found creed. For example, many Protestants like historian Gibbon's praise of the heretical Paulicians because they saw in then an ealry Protestantisim.
29 posted on 03/08/2004 11:07:03 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/davies/chapter3/

Were the Celtic churches ‘Protestant’?

When the Protestants break with Rome in the sixteenth century, they consider the Celtic churches to be early examples of Protestantism, free of the errors of the ‘Romish’ Church. That view is a mistaken one. All the central doctrines of the Celtic churches, above the role of the mass in worship, are those of Catholicism. If the Pope's presence does not loom large, it is not because the Celts feel themselves separated from the universal Church. It is rather because of geographical distance and the fact that papal claims to sovereignty are not yet fully developed.

30 posted on 03/08/2004 11:08:41 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; Destro; CARepubGal; MarMema; kosta50
I see, so postings on a Calvinist website that attempt to break the Celtic Orthodox onto the Calvinist wheel is supposed to be convincing in some way? We've been broken on harsher wheels without denying the Faith. I doubt that this will convince anyone...on our side, at least. ;-)

Ahem... or, you could try reading the above quotations -- what the Celtic Orthodox Fathers themselves declared.

Here's the scoop, FL -- I'm not quoting what some Calvinist said about the Celtic Orthodox.
I'm quoting, in their very own words, the direct preaching of the Celtic Orthodox Fathers to their own flocks.

And there, you have it.

31 posted on 03/08/2004 11:13:02 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Destro; FormerLib; CARepubGal; MarMema; kosta50
When the Protestants break with Rome in the sixteenth century, they consider the Celtic churches to be early examples of Protestantism, free of the errors of the ‘Romish’ Church. That view is a mistaken one. All the central doctrines of the Celtic churches, above the role of the mass in worship, are those of Catholicism. If the Pope's presence does not loom large, it is not because the Celts feel themselves separated from the universal Church. It is rather because of geographical distance and the fact that papal claims to sovereignty are not yet fully developed.

This is a Roman Catholic belief?

This is a Roman Catholic belief?

This is a Roman Catholic belief?

And these are Roman Catholic beliefs?

Then HURRAH! HUZZAH! HALLELUJAH!! For if Rome believes these Celtic Orthodox beliefs, Rome has coverted to Presbyterianism!!

For that is what these beliefs describe.

With all due respect, the Protestants are known to twist history to justify their new found creed. For example, many Protestants like historian Gibbon's praise of the heretical Paulicians because they saw in then an ealry Protestantisim.

Except that if you actually quote the Paulicians, they don't come off looking quite so Protestant (or orthodox Christian at all, for that matter).

But when you actually quote the Celtic Orthodox Fathers...

Well, look. READ my #31. Cross-reference with the full quotations given above.


Lemme illustrate -- Suppose that these Celtic Orthodox Father had taught:

Then you'd certainly be citing these as evidences of Eastern Orthodox Theology in the Celtic Church, wouldn't you? And you'd have an honest right to do so.

By the same token, then, Intellectual Honesty compels you to acknowledge what the Celtic Orthodox Fathers actually did teach:

For their own words testify, to the sermons they preached to their flocks.

32 posted on 03/08/2004 11:30:52 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Destro
This is historical revisionism of the worst sort. These Christians weren't "Orthodox" in the Eastern Orthodox sense of the word, since the split hadn't even occured yet! These Christians were all Catholic.
33 posted on 03/08/2004 11:34:12 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Minister for the Conversion of Hardened Sinners,Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Kettle....black...
34 posted on 03/08/2004 11:36:29 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Minister for the Conversion of Hardened Sinners,Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
The co-operation (synergy) of Divine Grace with a person’s own free will is thus required.

This is true of the doctrine of Theosis (Sanctification) in any theology -- including the Calvinist. Once we are Made Alive in Christ, we do cooperate in Sanctification.

However, you're quoting an Article about the Celtic Orthodox. If we like, we can just read what the Celtic Orthodox Fathers themselves wrote... I've posted numerous citations above.

Best, OP

35 posted on 03/08/2004 11:42:29 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Ping for later.
36 posted on 03/08/2004 11:55:52 AM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
This is a Roman Catholic belief?

I. Yes, Ephesians is our Bible also.

II. This may contradict Trent, but I would need more context.

III. As Roman Catholic as it gets. In fact, the last sentence is an excellent summary of justification: heaven is a gift; hell is always earned.

IV. (a) I don't read this as saying what you claim it says; I read it as an exhortation for adult converts to repent before they receive baptism. Extremely Catholic.

(b) Heretical.

Out of the five propositions you cite, three are perfectly acceptable Catholic doctrine. One may not be (but was within the pale of orthodoxy at the time it was penned!). One is heresy.

So I guess the Scots were 80% Roman Catholic.

37 posted on 03/08/2004 12:08:17 PM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Mind providing the links from whence these quotes arose?

Then we might better be able to discern their origin.
38 posted on 03/08/2004 12:09:58 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Campion
Out of the five propositions you cite, three are perfectly acceptable Catholic doctrine. One may not be (but was within the pale of orthodoxy at the time it was penned!). One is heresy. So I guess the Scots were 80% Roman Catholic.

Well, I suppose a case could be made that they're at least 80% Catholic of the Augustinian variety -- and that's if you can go along with the "free-will itself also was lost, for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he also brought into bondage" (quoted from Luther's "Bondage of the Will", or from the Celtic Orthodox? Yup, it's the latter!); I doubt many free-will Molinist Catholics would groove on such a declaration.

At any rate, however, their theology is still 100% Calvinist. ;-)

39 posted on 03/08/2004 12:15:46 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Campion
So far, all of the Celtic Orthodox sites that I've been able to find have mentioned Holy Tradition and the consecration during the Liturgy (Mass) and have not mentioned Sola Scriptura.

I believe you are correct.

40 posted on 03/08/2004 12:21:54 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
Mind providing the links from whence these quotes arose? Then we might better be able to discern their origin.

Certainly.

Concerning Justification by Faith Alone, The Death of Free Will in the Fall, Absolute Double Predestination, and Baptism: HISTORY OF THE SCOTTISH NATION, Volume 2 Chapter 23, J.A. Wylie

Concerning the Eucharist: HISTORY OF THE SCOTTISH NATION, Volume 3 Chapter 7, J.A. Wylie


41 posted on 03/08/2004 12:48:30 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
So far, all of the Celtic Orthodox sites that I've been able to find have mentioned Holy Tradition and the consecration during the Liturgy (Mass) and have not mentioned Sola Scriptura. I believe you are correct.

In Presbyterianism also, we believe that the Bread and Wine are Under the Blessing during the celebration of the Lord's Supper.

Yet they remain -- Bread and Wine:


42 posted on 03/08/2004 12:53:18 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Thanks for the links. It is exactly what I expected to see considering the posted quotes.
43 posted on 03/08/2004 1:10:09 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; MarMema; The_Reader_David
Yet they remain -- Bread and Wine...

With the Real Presence of Christ.

The Real Presence totally contradicts the statement "The Sacraments of the Altar are not the real Body and Blood of Christ, but only the commemoration of his Body and Blood."

If it is "only" a commemoration, there is no presence. It is bread and wine and nothing more. I guess the author and I agree as to what is on his altar table. ;-)

44 posted on 03/08/2004 1:13:38 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
Thanks for the links. It is exactly what I expected to see considering the posted quotes.

Yes, Wylie provides a proper footnote for every single quotation.
Correct attribution of cited materials.

45 posted on 03/08/2004 1:17:48 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
The Real Presence totally contradicts the statement "The Sacraments of the Altar are not the real Body and Blood of Christ, but only the commemoration of his Body and Blood."

Okay, so you're acknowledging that the Celtic Orthodox taught the Calvinist, not the Greek or Latin, view of the Eucharist.

Well, yes, that's exactly what I have been saying, isn't it?

46 posted on 03/08/2004 1:20:13 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Okay, so you're acknowledging that the Celtic Orthodox taught the Calvinist, not the Greek or Latin, view of the Eucharist.

No, I'm acknowledging that the author is attempting to wrongly portray that as so.

And I'm acknowledging that he allow his own beliefs to color his research. A tragic though not uncommon occurrence.

Anyone who has spent any amount of time on this forum has become very familiar with observing this practice. I've even seen folks "cherry-picking" quotes from Scripture to support the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura.

And I note that many members of the British royal family fled to Kievan Rus' following 1066, where they undoubtedly found a familar faith being proclaimed.

47 posted on 03/08/2004 1:33:08 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Yes, Wylie provides a proper footnote for every single quotation. Correct attribution of cited materials.

Indeed, he can cite another Presbyterian author with whom he agrees! ;-)

And you'll have to excuse me, but that leaves me categorically unconvinced.

It is heartening to do a Google search on "Celtic Orthodoxy" however and see how many are re-connecting to their Eastern Orthodox roots.

48 posted on 03/08/2004 1:36:40 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
No, I'm acknowledging that the author is attempting to wrongly portray that as so. And I'm acknowledging that he allow his own beliefs to color his research. A tragic though not uncommon occurrence.

Alright, well, let's ask a simple question:

Is this statement closer to:

Well?

49 posted on 03/08/2004 1:37:35 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
Indeed, he can cite another Presbyterian author with whom he agrees! ;-) And you'll have to excuse me, but that leaves me categorically unconvinced. It is heartening to do a Google search on "Celtic Orthodoxy" however and see how many are re-connecting to their Eastern Orthodox roots.

If you mean that Wylie's (numerous) direct citations of Sedulius Scotus are "another Presbyterian author with whom he agrees"...

...You're largely right!! Sedulius Scotus WAS essentially Calvinist Presbyterian in his theology. Nice of you to admit it.

50 posted on 03/08/2004 1:40:35 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-145 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson