Posted on 11/26/2002 7:57:18 AM PST by blam
Yeah, you're right, ash and fire have nothing to do with each other. /sarcasm
I think with responses like these that your self-proclaimed knowledge about language and ability to discern is over-rated.
No comment on the Welsh post? More coincidences? That makes about a hundred or two hundred coincidences now, doesn't it?
Your "Welsh post" examples are from the 200-to-300-years-ago wishful thinking period. People with no idea of how to do a study read through text after text looking for passages in Welsh and Hebrew that looked roughly parallel.
If you do that, you will find some, sooner or later. Thing is, if you haven't done that for a whole bunch of potential language pairs, you don't know what it means when you have to read N-thousand sentences to find 12 parallels. You have no calibration, no baseline. People got some hits and got excited.
When we really started doing comparative linguistics, though, the real relationships were not what the early wishful thinkers had trumpeted.
So, you're lecturing the rest of us on history, but you need someone to tell you the outcomes of the Turkish and Mongol invasions of Europe? This on top of your being unaware of any economic difficulties occasioned by going communist?
You've spent too much time on this thread bludgeoning with your ignorance for me to worry now about even the most easily misguided lurker thinking that you know what you're talking about.
So it's likely that Goths and Vandals would've been interested in plunder and but Pliny's Assyrian city-state would've not been interested in plunder and would've stayed right these at the north of the Black Sea? The Assyrians that lived north of the Black Sea had some kind of pacifying experience as they crossed the Caucasus?
When the Goths and Vandals and Magyars and Turks and Mongols invaded Europe, people noticed. Your Assyrians never invaded Europe that anyone noticed. That's why they're not on the list.
What list?
That's your story and you're stickin' to it. I'll give you the last word. I'm resting my case.
Davidiy lived 200 years ago?
People with no idea of how to do a study read through text after text looking for passages in Welsh and Hebrew that looked roughly parallel. If you do that, you will find some, sooner or later. Thing is, if you haven't done that for a whole bunch of potential language pairs, you don't know what it means when you have to read N-thousand sentences to find 12 parallels. You have no calibration, no baseline. People got some hits and got excited.
Entire phrases are coincidences? LOL
When we really started doing comparative linguistics, though, the real relationships were not what the early wishful thinkers had trumpeted.
Coincidences, coincidences. The world is just chock full of these coincidences. LOL
Where are all these asian descendants? I assume that if it was asian peoples invading in these mongol invasions that they would look asian. The first thing an invading army does is rape the women. Where are all these asians if that's what happened?
This on top of your being unaware of any economic difficulties occasioned by going communist?
I'm unaware of Communism causing the ground to become infertile.
You've spent too much time on this thread bludgeoning with your ignorance for me to worry now about even the most easily misguided lurker thinking that you know what you're talking about.
Oh really? You're losing a degree of credibility with every ten posts.
1. You first said that relic words would be significant. I've shown you hundreds of relic words and even entire sentences and then you throw your own theory out the door and say that it doesn't matter, that it's just a coincidence.
2. You say there's no way that a people descended from semitic peoples ever crossed the Caucasus. Pliny said otherwise.
3. You didn't know that the Assyrians removed the norther tribes from their homelands and restationed them in the captivities. It's in the Assyrian tablets that they did remove them.
Those are the big ones. But the main thing is that you went back on your own theory once proof was shown to you about relic words. First you said it would prove something, and once they were shown to you, hundreds of them, you said they're coincidences. So much for using languages to derive origin.
When the Goths and Vandals and Magyars and Turks and Mongols invaded Europe, people noticed. Your Assyrians never invaded Europe that anyone noticed. That's why they're not on the list.
Same people, different name. "German" simply meant "war man", it didn't specify ethnics. I'd say the Assyrians would classify as war-men.
That's your story and you're stickin' to it. I'll give you the last word. I'm resting my case.
I'd say things have gone very well on this thread even though I didn't want to get in the language arguments. Turns out through help from e-mails from interested observers there are solid links between Indo_European and Hebrew. I learned a little latin, and learned the difference between the bit-Kumri (Cimmerians) and the bit-Sakae (Scythians, Saxons). Profitable.
LOL
This link has a good summary of evidence of Assyrian occupation of the land of Germany in ancient times. Some excerpts:
But from where did all these Germanic people come?
Here is the answer of history: "There can be no doubt that they Black and Caspian seas," states "Smith's Classical Dictionary", article, "Germania," p. 361. Ancient historical records confirm this admission.
The Germans can be traced in historical records to the regions surrounding the Black and Caspian seas, which border on the ancient Biblical Mesopotamia. This is the region where civilization commenced and from where the patriarchs came!
Ancient German tradition claims that their oldest city, Trier, was founded by Trever or Trebeta, a son of Ninus, king of Assyria.
"The inhabitants of Trier maintain that their city is the oldest in all Europe," writes Josef K. L. Bihl in his textbook "In deutschen Landen", page 69. "Trier was founded," he continues, "by Trebeta, a son of the famous Assyrian King Ninus. In fact, one finds ... in Trier the inscription reading, 'Trier existed for 1300 years before Rome was rebuilt.' "
Ninus, according to Roman, Greek and Persian records, was the first ruler who began the systematic conquest of the ancient world after the death of Nimrod. He established the Assyrian Empire as the chief power over Eastern Europe and Southwest Asia, reported Diodorus of Sicily in his History.
But how is it possible that the oldest German city, Trier, founded over 2000 years before the birth of Christ, should be built by a son of Ninus, the renowned King of ancient Assyria? What connection have the Germans with Assyria?
Jerome, who lived at the time when the Indo-Germanic tribes were invading Europe, provides this startling answer: "For 'Assur (the Assyrian) also is joined with them' " (Letter 123, sec. 16, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers"; quote is from Psalm 83:8).
DID THE ASSYRIANS INVADE EUROPE?
Yes! Jerome said so! But how did he know?
He saw them! He was an eyewitness to their migrations from Mesopotamia and the shores of the Black and Caspian seas!
Now consider what Sylax, the author of the "Periplus," who lived about 550 B.C., writes of the southern shores of the Black Sea: "The coast of the Black Sea ... is called Assyria" (from page 261 of Perrot and Chipiez's "History of Art in Sardinia, Judaea, Syria and Asia Minor", Vol. II.) From there the Assyrians moved north.
Only 300 years before Jerome, the Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder declared the "Assyriani" -- the Assyrians -- were dwelling north of the Black Sea ("Natural History", IV, 12, page 183). But the Assyrians did not remain there. They are not there today. of course not -- they migrated into Central Europe -- where the Germans live today!
WHAT DID ASSYRIANS LOOK LIKE?
What did the ancient Assyrians look like? Here is the answer: "In the Zagros hills and across the plain to the Tigris, there lived a ... fair-haired ... people akin to the Guti (the Goths) who ... remained in what was afterwards Assyria, the neighbour land to Akkad" (page 5 of "The Sumerians", by C. Leonard Woolley).
When the ancient Greek writers wanted to distinguish the Assyrians and their Hebrew captives from the Arameans or Syrians, the Greeks often called both Assyrians and their Hebrew captives "Leucosyri" -- meaning "whites" or "blonds" as distinct from the very brunette Syrians who still live in Mesopotamia.
WHY GERMANS CALL THEMSELVES "DEUTSCH"
The Germans do not call themselves "German." They refer to themselves as Deutschen, and to their country as Deutschland.
When the Assyrians or Germans appeared in Europe, they claimed Tuitsch as their ancestor! That is where the name "Deutsch" comes from!
"Tuysco, the most ancient and peculiar god of all the Germans ... of this Tuisco, the first and chiefest man of many among the Germans, and after whom they do call themselves Tuytshen, that is, duytshes or duytsh people, I have already spoken." So writes Verstegan in his 1605 publication entitled "Restitution of Decayed Intelligence: in Antiquities".
Whenever a German calls himself Deutsch, he is therefore saying he is a descendant of Tuitsch (Tuisco or Tuisto in Latin). And when he terms his country Deutschland, he is saying his land is Tuitsch's land. Who this Tuitsch is will be made plain in Chapter II.
WHAT LANGUAGE DID THEY SPEAK
European scholars have thoroughly studied the language of the land of Hatti -- the ancestors of the Hessians. It is an Indo-Germanic tongue -- numerous words of which were akin to Old High German. So many similarities were found that Edgar Sturtevant had to declare: "To me it seems incredible that so remarkable a situation developed in two languages independently. I feel compelled to trace the Germanic ... to a common origin" with the language of Hatti -- common tongue of the Assyrians in Asia Minor (from "A Comparative Grammar", page 240).
Scholars admit that for centuries the language of the people who inhabited Assyria was not merely Semitic. Semitic was the late literary language of Assyria -- the language of scholars, the language of international commerce. Modern historians and archaeologists assume that the common tongue of all Assyrian people was Semitic. They have no proof. So noted an Assyriologist as Sydney Smith admitted "... that the documents from Asia Minor and from east of Tigris are couched in Semitic dialects spoken by men unable to pronounce all the Semitic consonants ..." (p. xi, from "Early History of Assyria to 1000 B.C.").
The same circumstance occurred during the Middle Ages all over Europe. The language of almost all European scholars -- and even their names -- until the time of the Protestant Reformation was Latin -- but Latin was not the common tongue of the people! Because most of the literature of Germany was in Latin during the Middle Ages does not prove that the common people spoke Latin.
SEMITIC BY RACE, NOT LANGUAGE
Asshur was a son of Shem. But after the tower of Babel, when the languages of the world were confused (Genesis 11), most Assyrians no longer spoke a Semitic tongue, but rather Indo-Germanic and related tongues! The Germans, therefore, are Semitic by race, but not by language!
In the days of Abraham, the Germans or Assyrians formed a great confederation of states or tribes, speaking several different languages (Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews", book I, ch. 9). One king of the Assyrians -- already discussed -- was "Tidal, king of nations" (Genesis 14:1). The name Tidal is Indo-Germanic, not Semitic.
Most scholars have never been conscious of the fact that the use of the Semitic language in Assyria was due to the rising influence of the Aramaic people (Genesis 10:22) in Mesopotamia and certain of the sons of Abraham ("Antiquities", book I, ch. XV, sect. 1). So prominent did they become that Mesopotamia is called "Padan-Aram" -- the plain of Aram -- in the Bible (Genesis 28:22).
Reviewing and focusing on Trier:
Trier, a city in south-eastern Germany, is said to be founded by an Assyrian prince named "Trebeta" 1300 years before Rome was rebuilt, which would've been shortly after Nineveh was founded (around 2000 BC). Trier was situated on trading routes and became one of the great cities of Europe during the Roman Empire because of that. Trier sits on the Mosel river which flows into the Rhine. The Rhine forms the Lake of Constance as it winds through the south of Germany. The Danube River comes within about ten miles of the Lake of Constance. The Danube flows into the Black Sea on the eastern shore. The Black Sea flows counter-clockwise due to the winds at a rate of 20 inches per second at the shores, which is about a mile an hour, or walking speed. The Assyrians controlled the lands that bordered the southern shores of the Black Sea. Considering all this, it's easy to see that a trade route could easily exist from the Assyrian Empire to Trier.
2004 GGG bump.
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So now Plato has told us when the last Ice Age ended...
Bump to read later. I read your post but not the thread. I will have to learn the metric system. Now that I get most of my news from the internet it seems the metric system is used to describe almost everything. I wish America had not given up on the conversion back in the 70'.
I remember learning some of it and road signs would soon be changed, then it all fell apart. But thats just another example of how the gov.org can very rarely accomplish anything.
Oops.
long hall
s/b
long haul
Ahem, corrections are only allowed for 60 days after the orginal post.<>
This must be one of the longest GGG threads ever.
Thank you for reviving this old thread. I missed it the first time around.
My pleasure. I forget how, but I wound up in the thread today, first time in, hmm, a couple of months (?), and noticed my boneheaded typo. :')
It's definitely one of the longest GGG-related threads! :'o
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