Afghanistan vets criticize M-9 reliability, lethality

Stars and Stripes ^ | 20 December 2002 | Mark Oliva

[45Auto]

Hackworth notwithstanding, I personally perfer the .45 ACP to the 9mm; but I wouldn't want to get hit with either one, especially at close range.

[Sparta]

Hackworth is a prick , but the M9 sucks!!!! We need to return to the .45 because it has better stopping power.

[Knitebane]

The 9mm is just a .45 set on "stun."

[Warren]

Maybe so, but it is more important to use weapons that please Euroweenies. Do ya want the French madattcha?

[doxteve]

As I pull on my asbestos knickers, I must ask: Wasn't it said when they were still debating the 9mm becoming our primary sidearm, that it was because the women in our AF found the .45 ACP too large for their hands, too much recoil, etc? I seem to recall this. I'd like to see some expert fact and opinion on this. Thanks. Doc

[Bob]

...police fired 19 9 mm full-metal-jacket bullets...

FMJ??? I find that incredible. Why the he!! would police not be using hollow points?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the stopping power would be a lot better and the reduced overpenetration minimize danger to bystanders? FMJ for police use just doesn't make sense to me.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"Nine soldiers completed surveys for the M-9 pistol."

9? 9???? Nine soldiers makes for a scientific study leading to conclusive proof??? Hack, get a real job, and not one of any scientific value.

[caisson71]

As a VietNam vet who carried a .45 pistol, illegal M-1 carbine, M-79 and an M-16,I will disagree with Hackworth as to the M-16 causing "thousands" of our troops to die. There were problems but I'm not sure it was in the thousands My best weapon was the M-16, my worse was the M-1
I preferred to use the M-79 and our chopper pilots quickly switched BACK to the bulky .45s after horror stories about the snub-nosed .38s that could not put a Charlie down like a .45. Of course, my most favorite weapon was a 105, fired by Americans or Thai Cobras. We had ton of options in the cav.

[Billthedrill]

I'd like to see a .45 in the field as well, but there are a couple of caveats: first, most of the 1911s left in inventory are pretty worn-out by now, and second, while seven-in-the-stack, one-up-the-spout is a bit passe these days, the staggered box mags of the Para-Ordnance description result in a grip that is quite thick by comparison, and some troops may not take to that without extra training.

[riverrunner]

Same old same old ball ammo in one or the other doesn't do a very good job. With good ammo they work just as well. It is amazeing that most of the people who are complaining didn't even use it in combat. The one that did had to shoot the guy 4 times so what it dosen't take long to shoot some one for times you could even do it before the first had time to take effect. Unless you brain or spine your target instant stops are not the norm with any pistol. If the m9 is so bad all come it defeated all the others in testing. It is no worse then the others and better then a lot. Remember in combat the other guys guns never stop working and always hit harder then yours.

[RKV]

My 10 year old likes to shoot my Gold Cup, and isn't half bad with it. I don't shoot hot loads, but it does fit in his hand quite well. The 1911 is one of the best ergonomically designed auto pisols ever. I own enough pistols to know.

[yarddog]

I like the .45 auto, in fact, I like it a lot but I also think the Beretta is a fine weapon and in some ways even better than the Colt.

The Beretta is about as reliable as a pistol can be. It is more reliable than the M1911. That is not a criticism of the Colt as it is famous for it's reliability, but the fact is the Beretta has done better in tests conducted by the U.S. military.

[El Sordo]

A 9mm is fine for shooting Europeans, but to kill a real man you need a .45.

[Batrachian]

It's funny how history repeats itself. Earlier this century our boys had trouble stopping Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines with their .38 Colts, which led the military to adopt a .45 later on, and now our boys are having trouble knocking down Muslims in Afghanistan with their 9mm's (also a .38, sort of). Assuming there is any truth to these stories, that is.

[Dogrobber]

IMHO the use of a handgun in combat is lunacy. To make clear; NO REGULAR SOLDIER SHOULD EVER BE ISSUED A HANDGUN. Soldiers should either be issued a main battle rifle or a shortstocked sub-machine gun or carbine. Handguns may have their place for doctors, pilots and others who have little need for a weapon other than personal protection in rear areas, but regular troops need a decent round in a decent weapon which can engage targets to a minimum of 100 meters.

In the hands of a pro a pistol is good to 60-75 meters, but the regular pistol shoot is only good out to 15 to 20 meters. Longer ranges need a stock. Short carbines or sub-machine guns are the ticket. Leave pistols for the REMF'ers and issue effective weapons.

H&K MP5, the Colt short carbines and other major makers have weapons which will serve. If they don't, lets develop one. It can't be that hard, this is America for goodness sake. We can build almost anything, we can certainly build a decent carbine or sub-gun

[caisson71]

Good....very good!

[Blood of Tyrants]

The problem with the 9mm is that most al Queda haven't seen thousands of movies. They don't understand that you are SUPPOSED to fall down when you are shot and instead keep on fighting.

[yarddog]

I guess statistically the pistol is unimportant in war, but a creek which averages a foot deep can have some very deep holes.

I think Sgt. York was very glad he was carrying a .45 auto, (I have also heard he was doing so against regs.)

[RKV]

I expect what happened is that they ran out of 5.56mm or had a jam and "went to gun" with the pistol. I agree that a sub-gun would be useful, maybe an Uzi in .45 if you needed a sidearm/backup as opposed to a pistol.

[Hugin]

To make matters worse, the 9 mm hardball round we use is a joke.

Perhaps it's time to rewrite the Geneva Convention to allow the use of expanding bullets in combat. The idea of using "safer bullets" never made a lot of sense to me. Loaded with +p hollow points the 9mm will stop as well or better than a 45 FMJ.