"I'm Personally Opposed to Abortion, But Won't Impose My Beliefs on Anyone Else"

Vanity | 2/28/03 | Humanae Vitae

[Dog Gone]

Do you believe that killing an innocent life should be illegal?

As it relates to abortion, I don't think it should usually be legal. I believe in some exceptions.

[jwalsh07]

If not then it becomes pretty hard to justify their having the ability to make the moral decision about when a life begins or when a sperm/egg combination is a living human being.

The question of when life begins is a scientific one that is well settled. It begins at conception.

The question of government protections arises after that fact.

[FourtySeven]

Excellent post! You bring up some points I've been struggling with, as of late actually. At what "point" do we say, "Ok, I have to let this abortion thing go"? Let me elaborate.

If we believe that abortion is the murder of a baby (which I do), then where do we stop in our defense of that baby? In other words, is there ANY justification for the "lunatic fringe" on the abortion debate that actually "take the law into their own hands" and KILL abortion doctors?

If not, why not? Is it because "killing is always wrong"? Would it have been wrong to kill Adolf Hitler, if given the chance? If the practice of abortion is not comparable to the atrocities the Jews suffered in WWII, then doesn't that say something about what we're REALLY saying the babies aborted are "worth"?

These are the questions I struggle with, currently, when talking about abortion. REST EASY though, all fellow FReepers and lurkers, I'm NOT another "Eric Roberts" or whatever his name was, that's suspected of bombing abortion clinics or killing abortion docs. I have no intention of going out and killing abortion docs, or bombing clinics, or any of that, because OBVIOUSLY the line has to be drawn before that.

All I'm really asking is, given this obvious line we can't cross, how can we still fulfill our moral obligation to protect the lives of the unborn, without doing such actions? In other words, what other things can we do that satisfy our moral obligation to the unborn just as well?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks.

[Egregious Philbin]

What do you think about Nat Hentoff's view on abortion? He's pro-life, but also anti-death penalty. He argues that it is hypocritical to be any other way.

[Jim Noble]

>>There is a big difference between a 8.99 month partial birth abortion and a morning after pill or an abortion after a first missed period. I feel differently about the two

It is understandable to feel differently about a "clump of cells" and a baby with eyes, ears, and a heart.

Unfortunately, by the time a period is missed, a test is positive, arrangements are made, and an abortion is performed, the "clump of cells" has metamorphosed into a very, very recognizable human baby.

[biblewonk]

The question of when life begins is a scientific one that is well settled. It begins at conception.

The sperm was alive before it got to the egg, which was also already alive. Therefore...

[11th Commandment]

Another Straw man, and a bad one:

Since the government can't say when and whom I can have sex with, they can not punish me if I infect someone with AIDS.

The results of anyone's behavior, is subject to the law. Specially, if the behavior harms someone else.

[amused]

This sentiment is what is carried by liberals who find abortion repugnant but are cowed by the much more vocal pro-choicer. A simple statement like "I do not believe in abortion" will elicit responses that the person making the statement wishes to force their beliefs on someone. And that is "wrong"....unless you believe in leftie ccuases.

[Protagoras]

There is a big difference between a 8.99 month partial birth abortion and a morning after pill or an abortion after a first missed period. I feel differently about the two.

Do you feel one is OK and the other not?

[jwalsh07]

He's pro-life, but also anti-death penalty. He argues that it is hypocritical to be any other way.

I beleiev Hentoff is wrong because he ignores due process and informed consent but I respect his position.

The position these folks take is not deserving of respect nor is the position taken by many on the left who are OK with abortion but against the death penalty.

[Jim Noble]

>>The sperm was alive before it got to the egg, which was also already alive. Therefore...<<

Therefore the combination of two alive things create something not alive?

[sinkspur]

He also is trying to pass a bill to legalize gambling here in Oklahoma. He recently asked the members of the state house and senate to "set aside their morals" and pass this bill.

There is nothing immoral about gambling, or drinking, or dancing.

If one gambles away the rent money, THAT act is immoral. But putting a few shekels in a slot machine, or drinking a couple of beers are perfectly neutral, morally.

[william clark]

Another good one is:

Don't like slavery? Don't own slaves.

[biblewonk]

The question is whether we should criminalize all behavior which is immoral, but the problem is that opinions differ as to whether some actions are immoral, even among good people.

Some people think it is immoral to consume alcohol, while others do not. I think it is perfectly moral and logically consistent for someone to say that they are personally opposed to alcohol consumption, but that they won't seek to impose that belief on anyone else.

Excellent post. Mine was about sex and you made the same kind of point in a more general sense. The morality about killing a life that may or may not have a soul and a spirit, vs killing a bug, is very tough. We have no way to prove that a living adult has a soul and a spirit let alone a living sperm/egg combination.

[jwalsh07]

The sperm was alive before it got to the egg, which was also already alive. Therefore...

you're argument is totally without merit because you are apparently genome challenged.

[eastsider]

There is a big difference between a 8.99 month partial birth abortion and a morning after pill or an abortion after a first missed period. I feel differently about the two.

You've got my attention. Does the timing of an abortion affect whether abortion is just or unjust?

[Terriergal]

I feel differently about the two.

So do I but does *that* really mean anything whatsoever?

[Arthur McGowan]

Straw man!

No, I don't believe that everything that is immoral should be illegal. But that's not the question. The question is: Should murder be illegal?

Are you in favor of making murder legal?

[biblewonk]

Unfortunately, by the time a period is missed, a test is positive, arrangements are made, and an abortion is performed, the "clump of cells" has metamorphosed into a very, very recognizable human baby.

Yes and the progression of the difficulty is an analog one. It is very obvious to me, fwiw, that killing a baby days before he was born is murder but that is not obvious to me regarding birth control. I understand that BC pills actually cause a lot of babies to die after they have been conceived.

[VRWC_minion]

I used to hold this posistion until I started debating stuff on the internet with folks. I was challenged by someone to look at the issue from the unborn childs view point.

If in fact I was against abortion because I felt it was the taking of an innocent life, how could I be ok with someone else taking an innocent life.

I did argue for several weeks that this wasn't a fair way to describe the problem but I finally let logic and consistency rule and had to accept that I should be against abortion by anyone. I didn't want to accept this because it then placed a burden on me to express to and confront pro-abortion friends.

It did take a while for me to alter my viewpoints on this issue and all of its related issues. So, I can understand how others are reluctant to face this truth that their view isn't logically consistant.