1st Amendment Survey (school prayer)

Said freshman | 12 March 2003 | MD high school freshman

[kegler4]

"Every family should have the right to decide what a child is exposed to. I don't agree schools should do this."

I wasn't clear enough here. I was speaking of exposure to religion, not to everything in general. Even if you send your child to a private school or a religious school, you can't control everything they're exposed to. You can't even do that homeschooling.

In my state, the standards of learning teach my kids a lot more about George Washington than the fact that he owned slaves (which he did). And I guarantee you they don't know what or who Mansu Musa is.

[sauropod]

I sincerely hope you are correct here. In my state (the People's Republic of Maryland) the schools are intellectual toilets.

BTW, it has been fun debating with you. I apologize for my cheap shot.

[kegler4]

"It does not have to be material self-interest. In this case it was about collection of power and self-aggrandizement."

Yes, but exactly how was I trying to do any of the above in my posts?

I'm certainly not going to collect any power or wealth here, nor am I going to collect any by opposing government-mandated all-Christian prayers in the schools, which appears to be the post that caused you to call me a Pharisee. Please don't be so obtuse.

[strider44]

Believe all you want, that's great. And I never said I wish something wasn't "true". I just don't spend time thinking about it. I certainly don't want my government wasting time thinking about it either. You can't please everyone, as abundantly evidenced by this thread. Therefore, the government should adopt the only plausible solution - stay out of all religious matters.

[sauropod]

1) No. Question also has a faulty premise, re: "America's foundation of having no established religion." First Amendment was an admonition to Congress. Not to any particular State.

2) No.

3) Not necessarily.

4) Yes. Due to a dumbed down populace.

5) Yes.

6) No. See #1.

[kegler4]

"BTW, it has been fun debating with you. I apologize for my cheap shot."

No problem.

[sauropod]

I'm all for the separation of School and State ;-).

[sauropod]

I was not referring to you FRiend...

[Lil'freeper]

Good grief! After all of that you're just now responding to the survey? LOL!

[sauropod]

So i'm a little slow...

[Lil'freeper]

...

[big'ol_freeper]

Every day I dislike these people even more. If I had my way there would not be any publik skrewls. Then an education might be worth something.

Had to get my 2 rubles in.

[jimt]

Re your #2, perfectly stated and right on target.

Now I'll go read the flames !

[jimt]

I'm all for the separation of School and State ;-).

THAT solves all the problems !

[jimt]

1) Can state mandated laws requiring any type of religious practice violate the terms of the 1st Amendment and undermine America’s foundation of having no established religion? (yes) (no) YES

2) Could having regulated/optional prayer in schools have a negative outcome on student performance? (yes) (no) YES

3) Could the issue of prayer in schools be solved by the government giving vouchers to students who want to go to a religious school opposed to a private one? (yes) (no) YES, but we'd run the risk of goobermint controlling religious schools - a bad move.

4) Would making prayer in schools optional cause a backfire from surrounding communities? (yes) (no) YES.

5) Do activists for state regulated school prayer have a justifiable argument to override the 1962 Supreme Court ruling that public schools would not incorporate a prayer? (yes) (no) NO.

6) Does having a state regulated prayer in public schools violate the 1st amendment? (yes) (no) YES

male, 50.

[Bella_Bru]

Yes you are! As soon as you mandate that his child(ren) should be exposed to other religions against his will, you have denied him, and his children, that right.

That's what sauropod wants. Look at his response #44. He doesn't mind a Rabbi, as long as it isn't really a Rabbi. He wants Christian prayer in schools. How is that not denying a Jewish, Hindu, etc., their rights as well?

[An.American.Expatriate]

I too have seen this more often than I care to.

This country was founded on the principle that each and every one of us is entitled to his/her opinion and that the government has no power to dictate what we should think.

That is way, although I would love to see more religion in the daily lives of my fellow citizens, the mandating of any form of religious teachings is funfamentally wrong.

[An.American.Expatriate]

No, I'm not a Christian.

Okay, sorry for the false assuption.

And I don't see that teaching kids about other religions is "temptation." I thought it was education.

It is right right to opine that. However, if the teachings of my religion dictate that I should not listen to the "false prophets", it is my right to not be forced to listen to them. Is this really so hard to understand?

No offense, but what kind of paranoid, fearful religion do you subscribe to that you can't even let your kids know about other religions? That sounds like a robot religion.

My religious beliefs are not the issue of this thread.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question... Since you seem to be all for education in values with concern for unsuring that "all sides" are presented, would you support graphic "how to" instruction, with multi-media support, of all forms of sexual relations? I am not talking "porn", real "how to" (it is, after all, education - the kids need to know the facts so they can make an informed decision). If not, why not?

[An.American.Expatriate]

You are missing the point.

As soon as you assume that you / the community / or the government can decide when that time comes when I "must let the seeds grow", you have abridged my right. It is not for you, or anyone else to make that decision.

Your seed analogy is a good one. As a gardner, one not only plants the seeds and nutures them, one also keeps predators away which could harm the young sprouts. A gardner does this until the time comes when the plants can fend for themselves. If he stops to early, the risk of parasites, weeds and other dangers grows and the development of the plants is in danger. Some may survive, but others will likely wither and die.

I do understand what you would like to do. I find the premise however to be wrong. Religion is a personal matter. No one has the right to mandate what my child is exposed to as a part of thier religious upbringing. Why do you insist that a child, who is just learning the concepts of his own religion, be exposed to others which will only serve to confuse him? Why should a Jew be forced to attend a class taught by an Ummah (who proclaims that Jews are to be killed)? Why should a christian be forced to learn about devil worship from a satanist? These teachings are abhorent to the beleiver of the former.

[An.American.Expatriate]

We have moved far fromthe original intent of this thread which was the 1st Amendment and relgion.

I contend that:

1. the 1st Amendment does not convey a right.
2. the 1st Amendment is a prohibition to Congress.
3. the 1st Amendment is unnecessary as the Constitution does not convey a power to congress to in any way regulate religion. "For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?" [Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #84]
4. the founders of our nation, by NOT granting Congress the power to regulate religion, recognized the danger of allowing the fleeting passions of the majority to dictate beliefs.

Personal Note: Some of you have questioned my beliefs. I have taken the position in this debate that if one were to believe that the mandatory exposure of thier children to other beliefs is dangerous that we as a community / state / nation have no right to subject that persons children to ideas which are offensive to that person. I claim further that the founders of this nation recognized this inherent right and to self determination. I do NOT adhere to the belief that other religions are dangerous! I simply defend the right of each and every person to determine for him/herself what he believes in and what his children are exposed to. So please, if you want to debate, leave the personal questions of my beliefs out.