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See men shredded, then say you don't back war (MUST, MUST READ!)
The Times ^ | March 18, 2003 | Ann Clwyd

Posted on 03/17/2003 2:37:50 PM PST by MadIvan

“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.

The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: blair; bush; iraq; labour; saddam; uk; us; war
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Note to peaceniks, France, Germany, Russia and China:

SHUT UP.

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 03/17/2003 2:37:50 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: AZLadyhawke; Southflanknorthpawsis; meema; headsonpikes; TEXOKIE; Pan_Yans Wife; mumbo; Siouxz; ...
Saddam's crimes bump
2 posted on 03/17/2003 2:38:14 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: MadIvan
BTTT
3 posted on 03/17/2003 2:40:20 PM PST by bwteim
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To: MadIvan
*nods head*
4 posted on 03/17/2003 2:40:50 PM PST by ProudArmyWife
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To: MadIvan
Saddam your days are numbered, Bump
5 posted on 03/17/2003 2:40:56 PM PST by SAMWolf (Don't get in a spitting contest with us, France. We can kick your ass easier than we saved it -twice)
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To: MadIvan
Whew. Thanks, Ivan.
6 posted on 03/17/2003 2:41:02 PM PST by justshe (FREE MIGUEL !)
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To: MadIvan
Saddam is definitely about to catch a ride on the Hell Express...
7 posted on 03/17/2003 2:41:05 PM PST by danneskjold (die-hard JAZZ fan)
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To: MadIvan; Vic3O3
Ivan,

Oorah! Great post! Trained with your folks and the Gurka's in the 80's. Great bunch!

Semper Fi
8 posted on 03/17/2003 2:41:43 PM PST by dd5339 (Lookout Texas here we come!)
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To: MadIvan
These "eyewitness accounts" should never be made public because they immediately bring the credibility of the U.S. into question.

Similar "eyewitness accounts" that were made public in testimony by family members of Kuwaiti government officials before the U.S. Congress back in 1991 were later exposed as utter bullsh!t.

If there are valid reasons for the U.S. to go to war against Iraq, then let those reasons stand on their own. I hate going through a situation like this only to get a feeling at such a late date that I'm being manipulated.

9 posted on 03/17/2003 2:42:13 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MadIvan
You've been one busy dude lately. Enjoy all your posts. Do you have to work for a living, BTW?
10 posted on 03/17/2003 2:42:22 PM PST by JusPasenThru (Bork, Thomas, Estrada...has the Left no shame?)
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To: MadIvan
No longer the left winger peace marchers in the street love this mass murderer, his sons and his thugs.

Soddomite is their type of guy.

Same goes for the libs in the UK and of course the left wingers from the Da$$hole, the Hildebeast to Conyers who was helping these marchers in DC today!
11 posted on 03/17/2003 2:42:27 PM PST by Grampa Dave (Stamp out Freepathons! Stop being a Freep Loader! Become a monthly donor!)
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To: JusPasenThru
You've been one busy dude lately. Enjoy all your posts. Do you have to work for a living, BTW?

Sadly, I'm unemployed at the moment.

Regards, Ivan

12 posted on 03/17/2003 2:43:08 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: MadIvan
There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch..[other bull deleted]

Yeah, sure they were. Just like those babies in Kuwaiti hospitals were thrown from their incubators to die on the cold, hard floor. I'm all weepy now. I just love being lied to in order to demonize an entire country.

What kind of sick, base, demented, M.F. sits around and thinks this stuff up?

13 posted on 03/17/2003 2:44:30 PM PST by clamboat
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To: MadIvan
Here's to a shredded Saddam---feet first.
14 posted on 03/17/2003 2:44:45 PM PST by pankot
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To: MadIvan
Russia, France and Germany have chosen poorly, to keep the monster in power in Iraq because he's their monster.

The monster will be destroyed.

Russia, France and Germany should bear the consequences (no economic projects in liberated Iraq).
15 posted on 03/17/2003 2:45:20 PM PST by tomahawk
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To: Alberta's Child
These "eyewitness accounts" should never be made public because they immediately bring the credibility of the U.S. into question.

Come now, we've got plenty of proof that this is precisely the sort of thing Saddam does. He gassed his own people for goodness sake.

Let the light of day penetrate all corners. Saddam is an evil bastard who should die. And with God's help, he will.

Regards, Ivan

16 posted on 03/17/2003 2:46:02 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: MadIvan; Mudboy Slim; BufordP; DarthRaven; Doctor Raoul; FreeTheHostages; sauropod; GunsareOK; ...
Fargo alert. Just picture Sodom as the input.
17 posted on 03/17/2003 2:46:05 PM PST by Xthe17th (FREE THE STATES. Repudiate the 17th amendment!)
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To: Alberta's Child
Similar accounts have been recounted by thousands of Iraqis living in exile. Why don't you give them a polygraph?
18 posted on 03/17/2003 2:46:32 PM PST by tomahawk
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To: MadIvan
This is but the tip of the iceberg. Yet too many don't want to know about it because it isn't happening to them. It's just like the number of people who have forgotten about 9/11/01 or pretend it never happened and that Saddam wasn't directly or indirectly involved.
19 posted on 03/17/2003 2:46:44 PM PST by Conspiracy Guy (RW&B)
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To: MadIvan
bttt
20 posted on 03/17/2003 2:46:49 PM PST by Oldeconomybuyer (Let's Roll)
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To: clamboat
What kind of sick, base, demented, M.F. sits around and thinks this stuff up?

Right, we'll put you down in the Saddam apologist category.

Ivan

21 posted on 03/17/2003 2:47:20 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: Alberta's Child
Yes...and no one should have ratted on Hitler either.
22 posted on 03/17/2003 2:50:17 PM PST by goodnesswins (Thank the Military for your freedom and security....and thank a Rich person for jobs.)
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To: MadIvan
Where does one find people cruel enough to carry these things out, I dont think I could do it at gunpoint.
23 posted on 03/17/2003 2:50:25 PM PST by Husker24
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To: MadIvan
Saddam is an evil bastard who should die. And with God's help, he will

my sentiments exactly.
proof that neither you nor i will be offered a diplomatic post anytime soon.

watched some of the televised Commons this afternoon.
looks like we don't have the market cornered on maroons over here ...

24 posted on 03/17/2003 2:51:14 PM PST by tomkat
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To: Alberta's Child
Do you feel the same way about the accounts of Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz?
25 posted on 03/17/2003 2:51:36 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: MadIvan
Again Ivan, Thank you.

Your one of the best.
26 posted on 03/17/2003 2:52:22 PM PST by CaptSkip
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To: MadIvan
This is what the people in the "peace movement" are supporting.
27 posted on 03/17/2003 2:52:39 PM PST by The Scorpion King
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To: Husker24
Where does one find people cruel enough to carry these things out, I dont think I could do it at gunpoint.

They said the same thing about Auschwitz; I've been there and seen that there are still flecks of human bone spewed out by the chimneys there. Man is capable of incredible cruelty and evil - it's a fact we turn our back on at our peril.

Regards, Ivan

28 posted on 03/17/2003 2:53:10 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: Alberta's Child
Yeah, I know the feeling. OTOH, the doings of the Nazis in the death camps were widely reported too, and widely dismissed as propaganda. What to do? If you believe this stuff and it later turns out to be false you feel like a fool, if you disbelieve it and it later turns out to be true, you feel like...well, like one of those "good Germans" who just couldn't believe the stories either.

Personally I am of the opinion that Saddam has already proven himself a murderous thug and fully capable of this sort of thing. But I say hang him for what we already know is true - it's quite sufficient.

29 posted on 03/17/2003 2:54:39 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: MadIvan
But, but, but the inspections are working and we haven't exhauted all diplomatic efforts and war is an admission of failure and, and and....
30 posted on 03/17/2003 2:55:38 PM PST by paul51
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To: MadIvan
Yeah, and so were the Kuwaiti incubator baby stories...btw I have a bridge to sell you.
31 posted on 03/17/2003 2:55:41 PM PST by kosta50
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To: MadIvan
Much thanks, Ivan - - I sent the article to several pantload peacenicks I know asking them if they still thought George Bush was a "butcher".
32 posted on 03/17/2003 2:56:04 PM PST by duckbutt (God Bless America.......Again!)
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To: Alberta's Child
I agree. If we don't have film of the atrocities, or the bloody machine, in our possession, it's not fact, it's rumor.

We have plenty of facts. And we'll have more after we rummage through some of those "palaces."

33 posted on 03/17/2003 2:56:46 PM PST by dead
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To: MadIvan; tomahawk; goodnesswins; Mr. Lucky
Read my post again -- Nobody's here to defend Saddam Hussein.

Why did my government have to lie to me in 1991?

And the comments about Hitler are right on target -- but it was the U.S. government that covered his @ss in the 1930s.

34 posted on 03/17/2003 2:57:22 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MadIvan
There is no way I could watch much less throw 20 people into a shredder, I would just turn to jello. If ordered to I could probably shoot people if there was a reason, but there aint no way in hell I could throw someone into a shredder or hang a woman upside down by thier hair. I shure as hell couldnt burn a little girls eye out with a cigar. It seems unfathomable to me.
35 posted on 03/17/2003 2:57:30 PM PST by Husker24
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To: Billthedrill
Yeah, I know the feeling. OTOH, the doings of the Nazis in the death camps were widely reported too, and widely dismissed as propaganda.

I'm not talking about anything that's being dismissed out of hand -- I'm referring specifically to a case involving family members of Kuwaiti government officials who testified before Congress and who lied their @sses off in the process. Just to generate public support in the U.S. for the "liberation" of their country.

36 posted on 03/17/2003 2:59:27 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: kosta50
Yeah, and so were the Kuwaiti incubator baby stories...btw I have a bridge to sell you.

Iraqi will be liberated shortly and the proof will be uncovered. If I were you, I would have kept silent my belief in the relative "goodness" of Saddam Hussein, virtues of his for which you have no evidence.

Ivan

37 posted on 03/17/2003 2:59:30 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: clamboat
The author has been a member of parliament for several terms....a lady from Wales who also is chairman of the organization whose researchers took these statements. What's not to believe about these atrocities?
38 posted on 03/17/2003 3:01:43 PM PST by PoisedWoman (Fed up with the liberal media)
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To: Alberta's Child
Why do you put the "liberation" of Kuwait in quote marks?
39 posted on 03/17/2003 3:02:18 PM PST by tomahawk
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To: pankot
"Here's to a shredded Saddam---feet first."

His sons, and all of his male relatives too! Saddam's evil should be wiped off the face of the earth as an example to all of the other dictators in the world!!

40 posted on 03/17/2003 3:03:37 PM PST by The Scorpion King
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To: kosta50
It's amazing when the Labour party says this, isn't it? If anyone in the UK, politically speaking, would disbelieve these accounts, wouldn't they? If anyone would be suspicious of these things, wouldn't they? The fact that they're not only listening to the eye-witnesses, but distributing the information, and that, publically, leads me to believe that these aren't lies. Perhaps that man is duped? Perhaps. In a country that's roughly 60% against the war, he's taking a major political risk both now, and in the long run. The situation, by all appearances, seems to indicate that the truth is being told. Trust but verify.

41 posted on 03/17/2003 3:05:10 PM PST by =Intervention= (so freaking sick of the lies...)
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To: MadIvan
You keep this up Ivan, and I'm going to have to nominate you for the Best poster on FR!

42 posted on 03/17/2003 3:06:12 PM PST by Humidston (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law)
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To: goodnesswins
Just what I have been thinking.... either we are RIGHT to get rid of Hussein or we were WRONG to get rid of Hitler. Both = 100% pure evil, killing thousands of their own people!
43 posted on 03/17/2003 3:06:14 PM PST by buffyt (WE MUST NEVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE UN AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLEAR & RESOLUTE US POLICY! B.GOLDWATER)
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To: MadIvan
Cheers, Ivan!
44 posted on 03/17/2003 3:06:15 PM PST by DCPatriot
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To: Humidston
I second that motion or nomination or whatever it is! Ivan is the best!
45 posted on 03/17/2003 3:06:48 PM PST by buffyt (WE MUST NEVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE UN AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLEAR & RESOLUTE US POLICY! B.GOLDWATER)
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To: MadIvan
The leftists don't care about the people of Iraq, they are filled with hatred and intolerance for anything good and decent.
46 posted on 03/17/2003 3:07:23 PM PST by goodieD
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To: MadIvan
Horrible.

These are guys are sick?

But how do we explain not taking advantage of the situation and removing someone like this?
47 posted on 03/17/2003 3:07:43 PM PST by Kay Soze (France - "Where the worms live above ground")
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To: tomahawk
Why do you put the "liberation" of Kuwait in quote marks?

Because using U.S. military forces to restore a royal family to a throne hardly qualifies as an act of "liberation" in my opinion. Particularly when the royal family in this case happens to rule one of the more radical Islamic nations on the planet.

48 posted on 03/17/2003 3:08:43 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
It's not unusual to paint your enemy as sub-human. I suppose it makes "killing them" easy on the conscience.

Anything to drum up support, though silent.

49 posted on 03/17/2003 3:09:15 PM PST by DCPatriot
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To: MadIvan
Every "peace nic" you list is profiting from direct business dealings with these butchers.

Aad against UN resolutions.

Why do we need the buthcer or his support agency - the UN?

50 posted on 03/17/2003 3:09:24 PM PST by Kay Soze (France - "Where the worms live above ground")
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