Question About Firearm Selection for Home Defense (VANITY)

vanity | April 13, 2003 | Jim Noble

[Jim Noble]

I have been trying to select a home defense firearm. I have handled and fired .38 special, .357 Magnum, and .45 ACP handguns, and 12-gauge and 20-gauge shotguns, but I'm not (yet) an experienced shooter.

I also have small kids at home.

I like the shotgun option, but have 2 concerns. 1) Do I like it because blowing away bad guys with a shotgun looks cool in the movies? (i.e., is this as viable an option as a handgun). 2) Can a bad guy with a handgun kill me before he is in lethal range of my shotgun?

Thanks in advance to all the experienced shooters here.

[SBprone]

"And let the flames begin!"

You mean the flames from the muzzle of your AR shorty?

I must admit, muzzle flash is the coolest thing about a shorty. I've only seen it outdoors in the daylight. Indoors at night it must fill up the room!

[CHICAGOFARMER]

This is a good process to go through.

Here is an approach I have not seen in this thread.

12-20 guage shotgun.

The first round is the police bean bag. The sound of racking this round the bad guy does not know. Then rounds of your choice.

What is the benefit of this stratrgy? The benefit is more safety. Most all who are shot with a bean bag will survive.

You have family. this should be important.

You still have the option to rack two should you know certain the bad guy is real.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"Get yourself a 16"-barreled AR15 carbine for a long gun. Shotguns are rapidly being abandoned by professionals for anything other than door-breaching.

Good grief! All this guy wants to do is to protect his home- he isn't planning on taking Mount Suribachi!

Talk about overkill...

[El Gato]

Having once been in a room as a kid where a 16 gauge was accidentally discharged, I beg to differ. Two layers of sheetrock (the two sides of a framed wall) were penete rated with about a 3" diameter hole, and an area about 2' square of plaster knocked off an exterior stone wall in the next room.

I suspect that 16 guage was choked full, or possibly modified. That means less spread and more penetration at a given distance, since up close the shot string hasn't spread out much and acts more like a single projectile. I also suspect that wall with the 3" hole was pretty close to the muzzle. Across the room and with a cylinder "choke", things would have been different. Also, you were, as you say, talking about#5 or #6 shot, whereas I would use #8 or #9 to reduce penetration. Especially important for me in that I live in an apartment, so I have to worry about penetration into an adjoining residence both on one wall and through the ceiling, in addition to into other rooms within the apartment. Hmm, maybe I should get some Corbon or similiar disintigrating ammuntion for my two .45 ACP handguns?

[El Gato]

Something like a 20 gauge shotgun, with a substantial recoil pad, would be just the thing. Even a .410 would be better than nothing. Either can be had used for no more than the military surplus stuff you mentioned. Mossberg makes a an inexpensive 20 and .410, already in "home defense" configuration, but a "hunting" shotgun could be shorted to the legal minimum and would probably suit your needs just fine. The "hunting" gun would be easier to find and probably less expensive on the used market. Check out the next gun show in your area. They are usually fairly well advertized, but you can go to www.shotgunnews.com for a schedule of shows in your area.

Use the lighter, "target" loads, rather than the heavier "field loads" at least for practice, and always wear ear protection when practicing. If you ever need to actually use the weapon to defend yourself or your son, you'll never notice the recoil, or the muzzle blast, although your ears will notice. Fit is less important with a defense shotgun than one used for wingshooting, but it still matters, particularly in the area of felt or perceived recoil. One that fits better will not feel as if it "kicks" as much. If you were shooting your ex's 12 gauge, it was probably way too long for you, and that both increased felt recoil, and reduces accurracy.

[El Gato]

Someone mentioned a .45 ACP Marline camp carbine. That's a good choice, but may be slightly outside your budget, and I do mean slightly they aren't really very expensive, and you can buy them at WalMart through their catalog, or could last time I looked at their catalog. However another similar choice would be something called the "Patriot" Carbine. It goes for about $125 to $150 and is chambered for 9mm. Not as good a choice for home defense due to overpenetration problems, although if you use frangible ammuntion, such as Corbon, it might be acceptable. I can't vouch for its reliability, you'd have to shoot it alot to find out, but you tend to get what you pay for. I know it's a blow back type action, only possible because a carbine can use a heavier bolt than a handgun. It is a handy little thing, and recoil is reported to be very mild. Certainly better than no gun at all.

[supercat]

If you don't keep a round chambered, it will cost you a couple of seconds and the use of your weak hand which may or may not present problems.

A firearm with a round chambered will go off in a fire, just as effectively as if someone flicked the safety and pulled the trigger. Further, unless one is already holding a firearm one will need to be able to get to it before one can use it. I would consider remote the odds that one would have 20 seconds to get to one's gun but not 21 seconds to get to it and ready it.

I would agree that it's foolish to pick up a gun for self-defense without immediately chambering a round. Among other things, if the gun is going to pick that moment to jam, it's far better if it happen when the badguy isn't on top of you than when he is.

The one disadvantage I can see to storing a firearm chamber-empty is that it reduces the magazine capacity by one. In most cases, though, I doubt that should be a problem. Even with a standard length unplugged magazine, one should have enough ammo to deal with any remotely reasonable situation.

[Trailerpark Badass]

Good grief! All this guy wants to do is to protect his home- he isn't planning on taking Mount Suribachi!

My suggestion of the CAR was a general one for a long arm. I would not suggest anyone except an entry team member investigate that "bump in the night" with a long arm. Too many weapon retention issues, as well as problems opening doors, using a cell phone, target ID, etc.

Technically, I wouldn't recommend anyone do room clearing alone, but, as someone else mentioned, they should retreat to a safe room with a cell phone and firearm and wait for the cops.

In reality, however, most people will investigate noises in their home at night, unless it is obvious that there is an intruder.

As for the CAR, I would leave that for any civil unrest scenario, should it occur. Or just fun. My main point is that I believe that the shotgun is vastly overrated for anything other than sporting uses. And those on the cutting edge of CGB/firerams tactics seem to agree with me.

[vinnyd240]

I am a little older than most posters and have had real combat experience with a rifle, handgun and shotgun and know how to separate myth from reality.

First I would recommend a 12 guage shotgun in 18-20 inch lenght. I recommend the Mossberg 590 because it holds 8 shells. The rem 870 is also good but to get the round capacity you have to modify it so why bother. The Mossberg is reliable and will work for you. I shoot mine twice a month with birdshot, slugs and buck with never a jam. I recommend a 12 guage because of the ready availability and choice of ammo. You can get low recoil ammo that shoots as soft as a 20 gauge with regular ammo.

Throughout the internet you will hear about the sound of racking a 12 guage making the bad guy soil their pants. I am sure that the poster does not have first hand knowledge of this nor am I aware of any study to prove this. In fact I find this same statement posted by many posters almost word for word throughout the forums on the net.

You can manuever a shotgun in a hallway. There is a low indoor ready position which basically points the shotgun at the floor with the stock near your shoulder ready for instant mounting if need be. In any event it is not smart to be roaming around the house looking for an intruder. The recommended method is to barricade yourself in a room with your family and point the shotgun at the entrance to that room awaiting the police. Yes there may be cases where you have to go collect your children and need two hands free and in this case, a handgun would be handier but you should switch to a shotgun as soon as you can. In most homes that I have seen the bedrooms tend to be near one another so in my neck of the woods that is not a problem. I am not a big fan of walking around with any weapon pointed in front of you without knowing for a fact that there are no friendlies there. Two easy to over react and shoot the first thing you see which could be a drunk neighbor in the wrong house or the kid next door simply trying to steal a few small items to pay for drugs. As far as worrying about a bad guy grabbing your shotgun well even here you have several options. As I learned in Vietnam, simply press your trigger if someone grabs your weapon. If you do not shoot them the sound and flash will usually make them let go at once. You can also use a tactical sling so that the shotgun can not be taken from you without dragging you with it. You can also tuck the stock under your arm which puts the barrel end at about the same distace from you as a handgun held out in front of you. I keep hearing the same thing word for word as if they read it somewhere and now repeat it as gospel; the shotgun is too long. In some cases it may be but in most it is the best choice for home defense.

Forget pistol grips, they make it difficult to shoot straight. If you do not believe me try one at a range and see how your hand/wrist feels after the first shoot and see if you can hit what you are aiming at. Military and Police use regular stocks. You can get a regular stock with a pistol grip if you like but stay away from a pure pistol gripped shotgun.

Do not listen to the people who come off as macho on the net. They are the ones who claim that they will blow away anyone who even looks at their house with bad intgentions. In real life you will be scared and shaking which is one of the reasons a shotgun is recommended over a handgun. The nature of holding a handgun away from your body and the short sight plane plus recoil in a small package make it difficult to hit what you are aim for. I have been in firefights with auto rifes at under 50 yards where hundreds of rounds were discharged without anyone hitting anybody. Real life combat is not like you think nor see on TV. A shoulder mounted weapon makes it much easier to hit what you aim for. It is easy to sound tough on the internet and sitting in the safety of a home but when you awaken to someone in you house you may be the one who soils their pants :)

The shotgun round will only spread about an inch per yard so you do have to aim it well (another reason to forget pistol grips). The benefit of using a shotgun is not because you do not have to aim it but rather the fact that the intruder is hit with many pellets instead of just one. The handgun bullet at best is inadequte for stopping a man. A shotgun battle is usually over with the first shot that hits what it was aimed at. No one can argue that. At close in home ranges you will be OK using birdshot. I personally use #6 but even a #8 light target, low recoil load will do. After shooting many types of loads I found that at home distances the birdshot tends to stay close together and hit almost like a slug anyways. I load my shotgun with two rounds of #6 and then 6 rounds of #00 low recoil buckshot. Most gun battles are over in the first shot or two anyways. If I recall correctly the overwhelming majority of in house encounters when the home owner is armed end without any shots being fired. This is what you want. The NRA states it costs an average of $70,000 to defend yourself from a wrongful death law suit should you kill the intruder whether you are justified or not. God help you if your pellets or bullets penetrate your walls and hurt/kill a neighbor. This is why penetration should be the concern of a responsible person. Birdshot has much less chance of traveling through my walls and that of my neighbors to hurt an innocent person. A 9mm can do so even if it first passes through a person without hitting anything solid. Hit some center of mass in the chest with birdshot and they will cease what they are doing. Do not listen to those on the net who what you to plan for the crazed crack addicted person who will keep attacking you even after you have blown off all of his limbs. In real life you will encounter a regular thief who did not know that you were home (most robberies are committed during daylight hours FYI) or some person who needs quick cash and will more than likely be very nervous to be in a strange house and will run, as does happen most often as soon as you shout down to him that you have called the police and are armed. In short the odds are you running into a crazed meth addict who can not be stopped with a normal weapon is extremely small. In fact the odds that someone will break into your house while you are home is small to begin with. Most of us who even talk about home defense will never have to defend our homes to begin with. If you want to take it to the ultimate degree might as well get a gun that will stop an elephant just in case one escapes from the zoo or circus and comes after you. In other words be practical. I will not argue that being able to accelerate a car from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds may save your life someday in some remote circumstance but it does not warrant buying a Ferarri.

One last thing, do not listen to the armchair lawyers, the ones that try to tell you not to make your weapon look mean like adding heatshields or do not use hollow points or black plastic weapons. If you go to court you are not going to be tried on how your weapon looks but rather if you were justified in using deadly force to defend yourself. If you are justified then you are free to use any legal means to defend yourself regardless of how it looks.

Having said all of this my recommendation if first a shotgun and then add a pistol if you have a need to negotiate narrow hallways. A better option is to add an alarm system, motion detector outdoor lights and a dog. The idea is to be prevent even having to get your gun. One last thing. I keep my shotgun in my closet (no children at my age) with the magazine loaded but nothing in the chamber. I have a lock on it with the key hidden very close by. I can get to it and have it ready in under one minute. I do have alarms, a dog and lights so it is very unlikely I can be suprised by someone standing over my bed. I get a kick of those who state that you should keep a bullet in the chamber and the gun on the night table in case you wake up with someone in your room. If this is the case you WILL be groggy and scared out of your mind and I really doubt that you will be able to grab your weapon. At that point it is too late. I keep my pistol in my night table with the magazine loaded but nothing in the chamber. I do not keep it locked at night because I have no children but if I did I would get one of those boxes that will open with a fingerprint (costly) or a simple chain/trigger lock with the key hidden but very close by. Enough to fool the kids. When you wake up in the morning you secure the pistol properly.

There is so much to say but please practice with whatever you choose for home defense. You need to practice loading, racking, clearing jams, aim, shooting, etc. until it is ingrained into your muscle memory.

Just my 20cents worth and sorry for the long post but after reading so much on home derense, much of which is just the same old stuff repeated over and over again by people who never shot a round in anger or been shot at much less have experienced the stresses of combat, I had to set things right.

[Jim Noble]

Wow, what a complete and helpful reply!

Throughout the internet you will hear about the sound of racking a 12 guage making the bad guy soil their pants. I am sure that the poster does not have first hand knowledge of this nor am I aware of any study to prove this. In fact I find this same statement posted by many posters almost word for word throughout the forums on the net.

I am not too impressed by that concept, although I suppose it's nice to have an imaginary way out of having to kill somebody in front of your wife and kids.

I plan to get a shotgun, and the only reason I will be racking any shells is to destroy an invader before he can touch one of my kids.

Whether he has time to soil his pants before he dies is not my concern.

Again, thank you very much for your help.

[BobS]

I am considering buying an automatic pistol. Either a Glock 23 (21) or a 9F2 Glorietta (Beretta). Large, expensive handguns $350-409. The training I want, along with the ~1000 rounds to become expert, easily boosts the price to $1500+. But why spend your money on junk, when you can have what Special Ops uses?

[BobS]

The problem with a shotgun is you will have one huge stinking mess to clean up. Will your wife like that? I say be efficient with ONE well-trained round only.

[ExSoldier]

This would seem to be a good place to post this. It appeared on the website of my gun club here in South Florida and although I just love it and agree with it, I don't want to post a vanity for: RULES FOR COMBAT

1. Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two.
2. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons.
3. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
4. Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
5. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough, nor using cover correctly.
6. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
7. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a big weapon and a friend with a big weapon.
8. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
9. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
10. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the weapon.
11. Use a weaponthat works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
12. Someday someone may kill you with your own weapon, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
13. In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
14. Have a plan.
15. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
16. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of YOUR weapon.
17. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
18. Don't drop your guard.
19. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
20. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
21. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
24. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
25. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4."
(Author Unknown)

[Squantos]

Good post Vinny..........Stay Safe !