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Fed's attack Texas church and burn it to the ground.....
PBS - WGBH/Frontline ^ | 1995 | PBS

Posted on 04/19/2003 2:05:26 PM PDT by ASTM366

As I do each year, I post information to commemorate the attack by FBI agents in military vehicles on the Branch Davidians compound near Waco, Texas on April 19, 1993.

The Branch Davidians, a reclusive group of Christian believers, had been attacked 51 days earlier by over 100 heavily armed BATF agents, surrounded and subjected to psychological warfare techniques by government agents. On April 19th the feds sent in military vehicles to fill the building at the Branch Davidian compound with chemical agents to flush out the remaining occupants. What resulted was a fire that burned to death nearly all the occupants; INNOCENT men, women, children and infants. Some committed suicide by self inflicted gunshot.

To this day the federal government has never accepted responsibility for the events of 1993, nor have they apologized for their ugly and glaring display of unchecked power.

In a tragic and spectacular act of revenge, Timothy McVeigh and his associates carbombed the offices of the BATF and FBI in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government
KEYWORDS: batf; branchdavidians; fbi; waco; wacoplusten
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To: _Jim
Refuting _Jim's postings with facts!

"With the intent being to 'flush' the people from the compound - woman hopefully shielding their children from the gas - was this not a half-bad plan? ."

WorldNetDaily.com 2/26/00 David Bresnahan "…… "They used 48 hours worth of gas in about three hours," Brannon said. He wants to question Reno about what happened and what went wrong. "They didn't have any difficulty saying we're going to try it this way for 48 hours. All of them knew they were going to be squirting it on little children for 48 hours. They had a gas expert, and he said 'oh, it's not going to hurt them.' But that was on the theory that it wouldn't give them (the children) permanent damage if they did it over 48 hours. He didn't say anything about what would happen if a few hours after they start they shoot every bit of gas in there -- 48 hours worth in three hours. As far as we know, he didn't express any opinions that that kind of dosage would be inconsequential as far as children were concerned," explained Brannon. "But all that comes down to: Is it okay to torture them for three hours? Is it okay to torture them for 48 hours? I don't think it's okay to torture them for one minute," said Brannon. ......"

181 posted on 04/19/2003 5:56:45 PM PDT by OutSpot
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
Overreacting?

My dear fellow Freeper, government agents killed INNOCENT men, women, children and infants at a place of worship.

You and I may not agree with the particular beliefs of the Branch Davidians, but I defend their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

182 posted on 04/19/2003 5:59:20 PM PDT by ASTM366
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To: quidnunc
If law enforcement officers fire upon INNOCENT citizens with automatic weapons without producing a search warrant, they have become killers and murderers.

Citizens can defend themselves against killers and murderers in this country.

183 posted on 04/19/2003 6:02:47 PM PDT by ASTM366
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To: OutSpot
     all the children who were shot were killed at point blank range apprently by their mothers

Glady.

From the full report issued by Dansforth:

A review of Peerwani's crew's work was performed by the individual who wrote the report I cited earlier - here is an excerpt of that work:
Page 9 of 151

Davidians killed by firearms and later recovered from the burning structure were found in the communications room (MC 7, 8), kitchen/stairway/serving area (MC 43, 44, 45), (MC 20, 21, 22), top of concrete bunker (MC 34, 35, 36, 39, 41), on the surface in the concrete bunker (MC 31A, 31DE, 47) and in the concrete bunker debris (MC 53, 56, 66, 67-7/67-8).

Each of the Branch Davidian decedents succumbed to handgun/rifle injuries except one, MC 47, who died of a shotgun wound to the head.

There were 16 Branch Davidian decedents with gunshot/shotgun wounds restricted to the head (12 adults and 4 children) (14 with single shots and 2 with multiple shots), 6 with gunshot injuries isolated to the torso (4 adults and 2 children) and 4 having gunshots to the head and torso (4 adults).

The determination of muzzlevictim distance, i.e. range of fire, involves identifying the presence and/or absence on or in the body of a variety of materials that are discharged from the muzzle of the gun in addition to the projectile.


An example of one of the younger victims - the 'mercy killing' inside the compound carried out by the parents and Vernon Wayne Howell:

Autopsy Report of Mt. Carmel Doe 31 DE (unidentified)

Note: remains consist of fragmentary skull of 11-14 yr. old child

Summarizing:

o 12 adults and 4 children - gunshot/shotgun wounds restricted to the head
o 4 adults and 2 children - 6 with gunshot injuries isolated to the torso
o 4 adults - gunshots to the head and torso


List of Autopsy Reports:

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_list00.html

184 posted on 04/19/2003 6:06:51 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: Vinnie
They could have arrested Koresh any time he was in town but no, th

Objection!

Hearsy and anecdotal!

An armed 'Koresh', determined to stay-out-of-jail at all cost, walking the streets and 'approached' by law enforcment would likely start a to-the-death fire-fight!

No?

Yes!

185 posted on 04/19/2003 6:09:38 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: ASTM366
It was not a church. It was a compound that had a church or worship area as a component element. It also had kitchens, bedrooms, entertainment rooms, gardens, gun rooms, bunkers, silos, workrooms, garages....

Calling Mt Carmel a church is like calling the Mariot Marquis on Times Square a bar [because it has one]

I will admit...'Church Burning' makes a great eye catching headline...even though the mental image doesn't fit with the facts.
186 posted on 04/19/2003 6:10:30 PM PDT by antaresequity (...)
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To: OutSpot
      Are you condoning the killing of innocent women and children just because they are in a cult.

No - wait! Do *you* think *any* of us would *condone* the killing of ANYTHING?

You're absolutely mad - mad I tell you!

You're more than mad - you're inhuman at this point!

How detestable ...

187 posted on 04/19/2003 6:12:01 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: _Jim
NO!
Wouldn't have a show then is the reason. BATF wanted a show.
188 posted on 04/19/2003 6:12:36 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: theFIRMbss
It has been proven in a court of law that on February 28, 1993 the BATF fired upon the Branch Davidians without producing a search warrant, killing several of them.

Have any of these agents ever been prosecuted?

Why was the shooting and killing of four BATF agents by Branch Davidians ruled in a court of law as justifiable homocide?

189 posted on 04/19/2003 6:12:40 PM PDT by ASTM366
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To: _Jim
Refuting _Jim's postings with facts!

"WHY oh WHY did the Davidians resist a lawful order and allow law enforcement officers to proceed with the carrying out a lawful order? i>

Newsmax Paul Craig Roberts 9/1/99 "…If Smith permits the evidence to be used in the wrongful death suits brought by relatives of the Waco dead against the federal government, we might eventually find out what really happened. If the meantime readers have asked why federal agents would have killed so many people. The answer might be as follows: For budgetary and public relations reasons, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms needed a PR gimmick. The Branch Davidians were an odd-ball religious group living in a compound, about whom rumors could be spread. One rumor was illegal weapons. Another was child abuse. The ATF obtained a warrant, but instead of knocking on the door and serving it, the agency staged a paramilitary armed attack with TV cameras in tow. The ATF intended to show that it had captured a dangerous group that was armed to the teeth. Thus would the agency endear itself to the public and lawmakers. Instead, the attack was beaten off, with deaths on both sides. The ATF's actions were illegal. (A jury refused to convict the surviving Davidians of homicide.) To cover up the federal agency's abusive use of force, the U.S. Justice Department used the deaths of the ATF agents to bring in the FBI. The FBI, having branched out into counter-terrorism, has a militarized or semi-militarized unit that was itching to try out its new aggressive techniques and show what it could do. This unit got out of control, and the Branch Davidians were gratuitously killed……"

190 posted on 04/19/2003 6:16:55 PM PDT by OutSpot
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To: ASTM366
ASTM366 wrote: If law enforcement officers fire upon INNOCENT citizens with automatic weapons without producing a search warrant, they have become killers and murderers. Citizens can defend themselves against killers and murderers in this country.

Oh for cripes sake!

You've swollowed the agitprop peddled by those militia goof who call themselves the Super-Patriot Movement hook, line and sinker.

At least some — and maybe many — of those losers approved of 9/11 too.

191 posted on 04/19/2003 6:18:50 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: _Jim
hmmm..._Jim, who constantly toes the government line says his truth would "burn my eyes out". Well, coming from you, it is further substantiation that the government would burn its citizen's eyes out. You mean like the government burnt the eyes out of those poor souls in Waco? Oh, now I understand.

Thank you. At least you have provided more sourced evidence than the contentious one has.

You never let us down, huh _Jim!

Please, help me claify something here...is your paycheck based on a per post per thread basis, or is it straight hourly? If hourly,would that be a G-2, or G-34 pay band?
just wondering

192 posted on 04/19/2003 6:19:05 PM PDT by woollyone (careful!...the sheep bite! baaa)
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To: the_daug
What criminal enterprise did they engage in?

The manufacture of illegal weapons.

Here - here is an excerpt from the affidavit (that normally accompanies the 'warrant') detailing some of the materials they were having 'shipped in':

On June 9, 1992, I was contacted by Lt. Barber who told me that he had learned from Larry Gilbreath that in June of 1992, the UPS delivered 90 pounds of powdered aluminum metal and 30 to 40 cardboard tubes, 24 inches in length and 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches in diameter, which were shipped from the Fox Fire Company, Pocatello, Idaho, to "Mag-Bag." From another shipper whose identity is unknown, to parcels containing a total of 60 M-16/AR-15 ammunition magazines were delivered by UPS to the "mag-Bag" on June 8, 1992. I know based upon my training and experience that an AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle practically identical to the M-16 rifle carried by United States Armed Forces. The AR-15 rifle fires .223 caliber ammunition and, just like the M-16, can carry magazines of ammunition ranging from 30 to 60 rounds of ammunition. I have been involved in many cases where defendants, following a relatively simple process, convert AR-15 semi-automatic rifles to fully automatic rifles of the nature of the M-16. This conversion process can often be accomplished by an individual purchasing certain parts which will quickly transform the rifle to fire fully automatic. Often times templates, milling machines, lathes and instruction guides are utilized by the converter.

Lt. Barber furnished me with recently taken aerial photographs of the Mt. Carmel Center which had been taken by Captain Dan Weyenberg of the McClennan County Sheriff's Department, Waco, Texas. Among the things noted in the photographs was a buried bus near the main structure and an observation tower, approximately three or four stories tall with windows on all four sides enabling a view from the structure of 360 degrees.

I was also advised by Lt. Barber that Robert Cervenka, a known long time McClennan County citizen, who lives near the Mt. Carmel Center compound, had, on several occasions, from January through February of 1992, heard machine gun fire coming from the compound property. Mr. Cervenka offered law enforcement authorities his residence to be used as a surveillance post.

On July 21, 1992, I met with Robert L. Cervenka, Route 7, Box 103, Riesel, Texas. Mr. Cervenka farms the property surrounding the east side of the Mt. Carmel property. Mr. Cervenka stated that he has farmed that area since 1948. From about January and February of 1992 he has heard machine gun fire on the Vernon Howell property during the night hours. He is familiar with and knows the sound of machine gun fire because he did a tour overseas with the US Army. He believes that some of the gunfire he heard was being done with .50 caliber machine guns and possibly M-16 machine guns.

On November 13, 1992, I spoke with Lt. Gene Barber who told me that Mr. Cervenka, whose ranch is adjacent to the Mt. Carmel property, had reported hearing bursts of gunfire from the Mt. Carmel compound on November 8, 1992, at approximately 2:45 p.m.

On June 8, 1992, based on information gained from Gilbreath by Lt. Barber, I interviewed Dave Haupert, Olympic Arms Inc., Olympia Washington, a company which had shipped several parcels to David Koresh at the "Mag-Bag", Route 7, Box 555-B, Waco, Texas. Mr. Haupert told me that the records of Olympic Arms Inc., indicated that approximately forty-five AR-15/M-16 rifle upper receiver units, with barrels of various calibers, had been shipped from March through April of 1992 to the Mag-Bag corporation for a total cost of $11,107.31, cash on delivery.

On January 13, 1993, I interviewed Larry Gilbreath in Waco, Texas, and confirmed the information which had previously been related to me by Lt. Barber. Mr. Gilbreath told me that although he had been making deliveries at the "Mag-Bag" and the Mt. Carmel Center for quite some time, his suspicion about the packages being delivered to those places was never aroused until about February 1992. At that time the invoices accompanying a number of packages reflected that they contained firearm parts and accessories as well as various chemicals. He stated that in May 1992, a package which was addressed to the "Mag-Bag" accidentally broke open while it was being loaded on his delivery truck. He saw that it contained three other boxes, the contents of which were "pineapple" type hand grenades which he believed to be inert. He stated that there were about 50 of the grenades and that he later delivered them to the Mt. Carmel Center. The Mt. Carmel Center is that tract of land depicted in the photograph labeled "attachment B" with the main residential structure being depicted in "attachment C."

Mr. Gilbreath stated that these suspicious packages were usually addressed to the "Mag-Bag" or to David Koresh. When he would stop to deliver them to the "Mag-Bag" he was met most of the time by Woodrow Kendrick and on other occasions by Steve Schneider. They would have him wait while they telephoned the Mt. Carmel Center to tell them that UPS was coming with a COD package. He would be instructed to take the package(s) to the Mt. Carmel Center. Upon arriving at the Mt. Carmel Center he was usually met by Perry Jones or on occasion by Steve Schneider who would pay the COD charges in cash and would accept delivery of the shipments.

On this same date, June 8, 1992, I interviewed Glen Deruiter, manager, Sarco Inc., Stirling, New Jersey, and learned from him that in May of 1992 their company shipped one M-16 parts set kit with a sling and magazine to the "Mag-Bag" in the name of David Koresh. The total value of these items was $284.95.

Also on June 8, 1992, I interviewed Cynthia Aleo, Owner/manager Nesard Gun Parts Co., Barrington, Illinois, and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machine gun except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition. Ms. Aleo stated that the total amount of sales to the "Mag-Bag" was $1227.00. Within the past month I have spoken with Curtis Bartlett, firearms technician with BATF and have learned that Nesard Co. has been under investigation in the past by BATF for engaging in a scheme to supply parts which would enable individuals to construct illegal weapons from various component parts.

On June 23, 1992, I spoke with ATF compliance inspector Robert Souza, Seattle, Washington, who inquired about the "Mag-Bag" corporation, Route 7, Box 555, Waco, Texas. He had received some invoices reflecting a large quantity of upper receivers and AR-15 parts being shipped to "Mag-Bag", Waco, Texas, from Olympic Arms Inc., 624 Old Pacific Highway, SE, Olympia, Washington. Inspector Souza faxed me copies of invoices reflecting purchases of twenty AR-15 upper receiver units with barrels by the "Mag-Bag" on March 26 and 30, 1992. These items are in addition to the items referred to above.

As a result of my investigation of shipments to Howell/Koresh and Mike Schroeder at the "Mag-Bag" Corporation, Waco, Texas, through UPS and the inspection of the firearms records of Henry McMahon, dba Hewitt Handguns, Hewitt, Texas, I have learned that they acquired during 1992 the following firearms and related explosive paraphernalia:

104 AR-15/M-16 upper receiver groups with barrels 8,100 rounds of 9MM and .223 caliber ammunition for AR-15/M-16 20 100 round capacity drum magazines for AK-47 rifles 260 M-16/AR-15 magazines 30 M-14 magazines 2 M-16 EZ kits 2 M-16 CAR kits 1 M-76 grenade launcher (not a typo, this is what it says) 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades 4 M-16 parts set kits "A" 2 flare launchers 2 cases (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades 40-50 pounds of black gunpowder 30 pounds of potassium nitrate 5 pounds of magnesium metal powder 1 pound of igniter cord (a Class C explosive) 91 AR-15 lower receiver units 26 various calibers and brands of handguns and long guns 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder 30-40 cardboard tubes

The amount of expenditure for the above listed firearm paraphernalia, excluding the 91 AR-15 lower receiver units and the 26 complete firearms, was in excess of $44,300.00.

From my investigation I have learned that a number of shipments to the "Mag-Bag" have been from vendors with questionable trade practices. One is presently under investigation by the ATF for violations of the National Firearms Act which prohibits unlawful possession of machine guns, silencers, destructive devices, and machine gun conversion kits.


193 posted on 04/19/2003 6:20:16 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: antaresequity
Lets get real.

Why were the Branch Davidians together in one place?

The simple answer is because they were a communal congregation. Mt. Carmel was both their home and place of worship.

Both of these have special protections under our Bill of Rights and Constitution, of course, unless you work for the BATF.

194 posted on 04/19/2003 6:20:38 PM PDT by ASTM366
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To: OutSpot
The WACO white-wash continues!

We're trying to get the truth in front of you guy's faces - it ain't easy when you're as *indoctrinated*, yes, INDOCTRINATED as you are by so much mis-information from the likes of McNutty & comapny.

195 posted on 04/19/2003 6:23:30 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: quidnunc
Oh for cripes sake, its obvious you don't know or understand that law enforcement personnel are restricted in their use of deadly force.
196 posted on 04/19/2003 6:24:31 PM PDT by ASTM366
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To: ContentiousObjector
Why in the world are you defending the government in this instance? They were WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Any independent fair investigation reveals questions of credibility with the federal agents, and reveals a lack of regard for the law and an unecessary assault against the Davidians by the Feds.

This simply goes to show how quickly the government will turn against its citizens, and how quickly other citizens will come to the government's defense.
197 posted on 04/19/2003 6:27:42 PM PDT by FirstTomato ("Women and Cats will do as they please. Men and dogs had better get used to it." Robert Heinlein)
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To: woollyone
you know, the ones that the liberal press prints for NPR shows to highlight and help sell.

NOT like this crowd that made Waco: Rules of Engagement at all - right?

I discovered this little tidbit regarding a much heralded 'pinnacle of proof' re: Waco ...

Waco: The Rules of Engagement directed by William Gazecki and features the journalistic labors of Dan Gifford, formerly of CNN and the "MacNeil-Lehrer NewsHour," his wife Amy, who was a producer of "A Current Affair," and the free-lancer Mike McNulty.
Nobody ever *dares* come clean with this dirty little secret - that ex-CNNers were involved!

NPR indeed!

198 posted on 04/19/2003 6:28:16 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: CyberAnt
I'm not certain about that. They are as big on shunning as the Amish. When your whole life revolves around the Church, getting dissed is a pretty huge deal.

I grew up with lots of Saints. I can answer many questions you may have. I'm not trying to sound like a know it all, either.
199 posted on 04/19/2003 6:29:22 PM PDT by annyokie (provacative yet educational reading alert)
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To: ASTM366
ASTM366 wrote: Oh for cripes sake, its obvious you don't know or understand that law enforcement personnel are restricted in their use of deadly force.

I was a cop for over 30 years so I understand more about the use of deadly force than you ever will.

I've known a lot of agents from the BATF as well as from the FBI, Secret Service, DEA and INS.

I know the training they receive and I don't for one instant believe the feds shot first.

The Branch Davidians on the other hand were a bunch of gun-happy head cases.

The feds blungled to whole incident badly, but it was because of the turf wars the BATF brass was engaging in with other federal agencies, not because the field agents were out of control.

200 posted on 04/19/2003 6:34:16 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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