Posted on 04/25/2003 6:47:59 AM PDT by knighthawk
Now, obviously, that statement is completely false, given the info presented here. Is there a chance of a flare-up in the US, of course. Are there sloppy doctors here, yep. But the health care system has already handled cases for over a month now, and it is doing a good job.
But the assertion that it hadn't spread to the US yet is not even remotely true.
I hope not, because so far we haven't been hit where we are every bit as likely to be have very similar conditions as exist in Toronto (note: I've worked there in the viral barrier protection business).
What do you have to say about the facts and personal observations I posted? Note that I am not asserting that the Canadian system is in any way superior, quite the contrary; I consider a private system to be superior, but that is hardly what we have.
IMO, so far, considering how our healthcare and public health systems are being managed, we've been damned lucky. We had better be taking the threat of SARS far more seriously in our hospitals than the "business as usual" with a few extra meetings, which is I have seen so far.
THere are no apologies necessary. I just wanted to clarify the timeline of this disease and maybe make some people reading the thread a little more at ease.
As I said in my later clarification I really was merely reffering to the natural human tendency to not go for the difficult diagnosis. I am wondering if the slight difference in timing between the Canadian problems and the US problems might be a contibutary factor to the American respomnse or was it merely that our doctors got better information and paid more attention?
I think it is as simple as US hospitals having better infection control procedures in place.
Actually, this has nothing to do with the TREATMENT of SARS, although that argument could possibly be made. I'm saying the lack of hospital based infections here in the US as compared to Canada is proof of better infection control procedures (at least).
I hope not, because so far we haven't been hit where we are every bit as likely to be have very similar conditions as exist in Toronto (note: I've worked there in the viral barrier protection business)
I have no idea what that statement means. Could you expand on that a bit?
IMO, so far, considering how our healthcare and public health systems are being managed, we've been damned lucky. We had better be taking the threat of SARS far more seriously in our hospitals than the "business as usual" with a few extra meetings, which is I have seen so far.
The operative term here is "IMO", because it is indeed your opinion. Here in Western PA, a hospital went into complete lockdown the other day when a woman showed up with bacterial pneumonia. Not data, for sure, but one story is as good as another. So just because you don't think we're taking things seriously enough, doesn't mean we aren't.
What do you have to say about the facts and personal observations I posted?
"The plural of anecdote is not data"?
I thought so; it's merely an association, and not even close to a proof. You need to spend a little more time in a wider range of hospitals to know something about common policies and procedures concerning infectious disease control. They are woefully inadequate to prevent widespread infections of a disease that is as easily transmitted as is SARS.
I worked in the viral barrier protection business. That is the design, manufacture, and sale of medical devices that prevent humans from contacting a pathogen, specifically a virus. Examples are gloves, gowns, breather masks, goggles, etc. I designed and developed such products for a living. I hold international patents for such devices. To create successful products in that industry, one needs an intimate knowledge of medical procedures, chemicals, and viral transmission modes.
That's data sonny, that indicates that my IMO means something. Now go back and read the post about my wife's experience as an RN-IV. If a world-class operation like Stanford allows such behavior among its medical staff, consider what WILL happen if SARS gets into a mad-house full of illegal aliens like County USC.
Patients occasionally lined the hallways, too numerous for a ward, including women delivering babies. My wife has seen infants stacked side by side and rolled down those same hallways on gurneys. I have seen waiting rooms so packed with sick people that TB transmission is a concern even if there wasn't SARS. Mr. Steyn's description of a hospital in Toronto was indeed reminiscent of scenes occuring in hospitals all over the Southwest.
We've been lucky. Your "proof" is a statistical joke, and an almost baseless assertion. Our situation may be better here than in Canada, but that isn't saying much. IMO the American healthcare system is not ready to prevent widespread infections of SARS.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
This article, like many others, says that China is especially vulnerable because of poor medical facilities in rural areas. I suspect that this is backwards; I'd guess that, in fact, the crowded cities are where the epidemic would be. (In fact, the concentration of SARS patients in densely populated hospitals may have facilitated its spread; nurses and doctors are especially at risk. In that sense, the medical care provided may actually have made the situation worse by causing many more people to be infected, even though it presumably saved the lives of many of those who were infected.)
As for Canada, I have no doubt that socialized medicine is a terrible system and that Toronto made a series of systematic blunders in dealing with SARS. But why hasn't SARS emerged as a major problem in any other Canadian cities? Vancouver, for instance, also has a large Asian population.
This says that the SARS outbreak in Toronto cannot be attributed just to the floundering Canadian medical system and to the general commitment in Canada to political correctness. I think Toronto must have been particularly unlucky in some way with regard to SARS exposure or vulnerability, or the socialized medical care is institutionally worse there than in the rest of Canada for some reason.
Your entire argument seems to be "this is the way it is in my hospital, therefore, that is the way it is in all hospitals". I smell a logical fallacy.
This is my point. Well, it is probably worthwhile to first revisit your initial statement:
Your implication is that SARS has been in Canada longer than it has in the US. The sources that I posted from the CDC PROVE that point to be incorrect.
It is therefore completely proper to make the assertion that there is a fundamental difference between how the two countries have handled the outbreak. Your anecdotal evidence means nothing to me, because the facts show things to be different.
The rest of your post seems to be the argument "things aren't bad now, but they will be". I guess we will see, but I will put my money on the professionalism and expertise of the physicians in this country.
I meant that Canada's disease is the socialised medicine Mr. Steyn was disparaging with his example. You missed the point entirely.
Your entire argument seems to be "this is the way it is in my hospital, therefore, that is the way it is in all hospitals". I smell a logical fallacy.
A logical fallacy would be, "SARS has been in both countries (for all of a month or so mind you) and because they have had an outbreak and we haven't (that we know of) our SYSTEM is better."
My point was, Canada's SYSTEM is merely an advanced stage of ours. By the time you add up Medicare, Medicaid, MediCal, and the manner in which HMOs such as Kaiser operate, they are all too similar.
Further, my vignette was to point out that the litany of errors Mr. Steyn described is a series of events that are entirely LIKELY in a US hospital and my examples span from the best to the worst. Your "proof" was no proof, and now is not the time to be smug about any perceived superiority in US healthcare. It may be real, but in my judgment as one experienced in infection control, that difference is insufficient to prevent a serious outbreak of SARS in the US.
What logical fallacy would that be? I'm comparing two systems under the exact same situation at the exact same frame that have essentially two different outcomes, I fail to see any logical disconnect there.
Further, my vignette was to point out that the litany of errors Mr. Steyn described is a series of events that are entirely LIKELY in a US hospital and my examples span from the best to the worst.
How does your single story prove that those events are in any way LIKELY? You story proves that the situation can and does occur, but it in no way proves it is LIKELY.
Your "proof" was no proof, and now is not the time to be smug about any perceived superiority in US healthcare.
You seem to be of the opinion that if you say something enough, it is true. You continue to say that since you had a certain experience, that experience is happening in most hospitals in this country. This is nonsense. Likewise, I show numbers from the CDC about the infection rate in this country and you say it doesn't prove anything. Well....why? You can' just ignore the numbers and say they aren't proof because they don't fit your notions.
So9
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