My daughter deserves the absolute best college, which may be the problem

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ^ | Saturday, May 10, 2003 | Tom O'Boyle

[Carry_Okie]

I went to a "best school," and I went to several public junior colleges.

Guess what? There were good and bad at both of them. Frankly, the difference was not pronounced enough to support your assertion. Some of the best teachers I ever had were at those junior colleges.

[justshutupandtakeit]

My experience was totally different but the University of Chicago required actual Full Professors to teach in the College not just grad assts. and asst. Professors. Those in the Jr. colleges I attended were nothing like that.

But UofC was VERY serious.

[Carry_Okie]

But UofC was VERY serious.

Oh, so now we're name dropping to differentiate ourselves. I see. Well, Harvey Mudd is a VERY serious place too (Claremont, average entering math SAT=720, 42% national merit scholars on entry (highest rate in the country, BTW, rated in the top five schools in the country by US News for over a decade, and several times at #1 by college and university presidents)). Mudd also requires only full professors for teaching and had an 8:1 student to faculty ratio.

Guess what? My professors at Mudd may all have been highly regarded researchers, but some were lousy teachers. It happens. Others were outstanding. Perhaps the difference is that Mudd is a college of engineering and science. Evaluations of relative quality aren't as subjective in hard sciences as is often found in liberal arts education.

OTOH, at Laney College in inner city Oakland, CA, I had a professor who studied under Levy at Bologna, Joseph Ancesci (IIRC the spelling). He was the finest calculus teacher I ever had. The man produced virtually an original textbook with his lectures. Ironically, one of Levy's other protogees taught at Mudd as well (Brovelli was excellent too).

You can find excellent teachers in unlikely places. You can find lousy teachers where you should rationally expect better. The real difference is the students.

[justshutupandtakeit]

When I was there the student body was one of the elements that made the place so serious. Since when is naming a school I attended name-dropping? Even if it is one of the World's greatest universities.

Please, listing a PROGRAM as #1 is not the same as listing a UNIVERSITY as number one. The SAT math score is boosted because it is an engineering program. SATs at the college of UChicago were around 1400 when I was there (mid-60s) so I was nothing but average. My math was 680 if I recall rightly. 720/680 -can't remember which was which.

Chicago gets downgraded alot because it is in the middle of a ghetto. Actually, a NO-Man's land since buildings have been razed to keep the domestic terrorists away.

[KC_for_Freedom]

Our son has a cousin who just finished his architecture degree, War Eagle, Good for your daughter.

[Mr Rogers]

Not true. At 7 G's (well below the 9 G capacity of the F-16), my upper body & survival gear weighs around 700-800 pounds. The noggin' + helmet are in the 120-150 range, I think. Muscle mass in the legs is good so tensing can squeeze blood to the upper body, or so the flight docs tell me. Muscle mass is not something women are good at building. It ISN'T a video game - but the performance difference doesn't show up flying around the flagpole.

[nevergore]

One of my businesses is a Gymnastics facility... the female gymnasts that we have competing I would put up against any male graduate of any US Military Academy for upper body strength based on physical weight and size. Prime prerequisite for a fighter pilot.

Funny true story, my older daughter who is on her way to the Air Force Academy is in the Civil Air Patrol. Being constantly surrounded by 17 & 18 year old "tough" guys whom are slated for the military can be a humbling experience for a girl.

These "tough" guys constantly have overhand pull-up contest pumping out on average 17-20 of the chin-ups...

My daughter would tell them "You guys think your so tough, I bet my little sister could beat you"....these guys would strain out their pull-ups, kicking their legs to get the last few up.

Then little sister (14 year old)would ante up to the bar and pop of 50 overhand pull ups with perfect form. I honestly do not know how many she could really do if pushed but she does not look tired when she hit the fifty mark......

BTW, she's a Regionally ranked Level 10 gymnast.....

NeverGore

[Pukka Puck]

My daughter just got her acceptance notice from Rice.

So much for the importance of extracurricular activities.

Numbers rule!

[Pukka Puck]

She is in. No questions are needed.

With a 100% success rate, I think I have the system pegged.

[Pukka Puck]

Did I mention that she never pulled an all-nighter?

[Pukka Puck]

"If you are a white male applying to the University of Virginia and have a 1400 SAT scores and are in the top 10% of your high school class, your chance of being accepted is 50%."

Interesting statistic. Can you provide a link to the University of Virginia web site that backs up your claim?

If you are my daughter with her grades and SAT score, you have a 100% chance of being admitted to Rice.

[Pukka Puck]

"Are you arguing that everybody with a 1500 SAT score at Rice is admitted before anyone with a 1490 is admitted?"

Of course not. A black person with a 1490 would be admitted long before a white with a 1500.

Grades, difficulty of curriculum, and legacy are additional factors.

I hope this helps.

[Pukka Puck]

From the site you posted, I found the following:

A white person, living in state, with a SAT of 1160 (580 V, 580 M) and in the top 5% of their class has a 50% chance of being admitted to Virginia.

Those numbers are very different than the 1400, 1490, and 1500 SAT scores that you posit.

Since Virginia is a state school, supported by the taxpayers of Virginia, they favor state residents, most of the applicants are white, and most of the applicants to Virginia are going to have good grades and consequently, relatively high class rank. I think the numbers are most telling within the subgroup of white, in-state, and highly ranked applicants, because they make up the bulk of the applicants. For these students, SAT is the great divider between those who get into Virginia and those who do not.

In general, the site you directed me to proves my point, i.e., just as I pointed out it is all about numbers. The higher the SAT score and the higher the class rank, which is a proxy for grades, the better your chances are of getting into Virginia. It is true that other factors, such as race, being in or out of state, and being a legacy also have a bearing on acceptance rates, but within each of these categories, none of which the applicant has any control over, the chances of being admitted increases with better SAT scores and grades.

Can you find an example where a person with a lower SAT score has a better chance of being admitted to Virginia with a lower SAT score, all other factors being held constant?

[RWG]

Typical elitist rambling. Going on and on about how things were different and better but then going ahead and giving in to the trend of today.

[Pukka Puck]

It looks like we agree. Good.