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Wolfowitz in Skopje What Next for Macedonia?
antiwar.com ^ | May 20, 2003 | Christopher Deliso

Posted on 05/20/2003 8:51:59 AM PDT by Destro

Wolfowitz in Skopje – What Next for Macedonia?

by Christopher Deliso

May 20, 2003

A total eclipse of the full moon on Friday morning, street warfare between Macedonians and Albanians in Tetovo on Friday night – could these portentous events have had anything to do with the next day's visit from US Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz?

Über-hawk Wolfowitz touched down briefly in Skopje on the third leg of his Balkan tour. At his first stop (Sarajevo) Wolfowitz oversaw the signing of a treaty guaranteeing that Bosnia will never extradite an American soldier to the International Criminal Court (ICC) for war crimes. At the second stop, Kosovo's Camp Bondsteel, Wolfowitz inspected the troops at this all but forgotten imperial outpost.

Wolfowitz's trip to Macedonia was decidedly low-key, and lasted only a few hours. Officially, he came for the photo op and speech praising the Iraq-bound Macedonian conscripts. However, the fact that he also met in private with former NLA boss Ali Ahmeti, President Boris Trajkovski, and later with Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski and Defense Minister Vlade Buchkovski seems to indicate that Rumsfeld's right-hand man came to talk business.

Operation Evade Journalists

However, it is slightly unclear as to what that business was. Wolfowitz's entourage, which included US Ambassador Laurence Butler and the proverbial men in dark suits and sunglasses talking on mobile phones, were escorted briskly in and out of government buildings all morning, leaving little chance for interrogation. Although Wolfowitz answered two or three mundane questions in a mundane way when meeting with Trajkovski, no real explanation for his visit was given. And the US Embassy on Saturday claimed to have no one available who could speak on the matter.

Saturday's final photo op for Wolfowitz was the Macedonian Army's Ilinden barracks, a sprawling encampment situated on a high wooded bluff overlooking Skopje. Here Wolfowitz gave a short speech to the 39 Iraq-bound Macedonian soldiers. Among them are members of the Wolves (special forces), as well as army medics.

Flanked by officials, Wolfowitz stood opposite the neatly-arrayed Macedonian troops and thanked them for playing their part in the "liberation" of the Iraqi people from "…one of the worst dictators of modern history." He also alluded to the US-imposed Ohrid Agreement when praising the Macedonians for "settling issues by talking instead of by fighting." He then proceeded down the row, cordially shaking hands with each of the conscripts. Much snapping and flashing ensued from the thicket of cameras adjacent.

photo by Cvetin Cilimanov for Antiwar.com

(Excerpt) Read more at antiwar.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: albania; balkans; campaignfinance; macedonia; paulwolfowitz
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This is an excerpt.
1 posted on 05/20/2003 8:52:01 AM PDT by Destro
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To: *balkans
bump
2 posted on 05/20/2003 9:04:45 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Anti war.com isn't known for its credibility.
3 posted on 05/20/2003 9:25:58 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: MEG33
Prove it. They may not be Bush boosters but I have never seen them pull a NY Times - Jayson Blair especially when it has come to the Balkans where I think the entire American policy is not credible.
4 posted on 05/20/2003 9:29:32 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
I know your view..I gave you mine.
5 posted on 05/20/2003 9:32:01 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: Destro
Is he one of those neo-con slav haters, islam lovers? If so, what else will they rape slavs with??? New and improved KLA?
6 posted on 05/20/2003 9:33:28 AM PDT by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: Destro
Why is supporting expansionist entraupranural islamicist narco-slavers not credible?
7 posted on 05/20/2003 9:34:28 AM PDT by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: RussianConservative; MEG33
MEG33 may not remember but weeks before 9/11, when these Slavo-Macedonians were fighting for their lives against al-Qaeda linked Albanian Muslim insurgents, Condi Rice went to the Ukraine to arm twist them to stop shipments of weapons to FYROMacedonia because the Bush administration wanted the Slavs to make a deal with the Albanian Muslims and partition the country along ethnic lines.

That incident among a long list of others stands as an example to expose these neo-con slav haters, islam lovers for what they are.

8 posted on 05/20/2003 9:40:13 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Don't forget arm twisting to stop Putin from bombing Taliban.
9 posted on 05/20/2003 9:45:08 AM PDT by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: RussianConservative; MEG33
http://www.iansa.org/news/2001/jul_01/maced.htm

FOR PERSONAL, NON-COMMERCIAL USE ONLY

Kiev Ukrainian Television UT1

July 28, 2001

Macedonian envoy unhappy about requests to stop Ukrainian arms supplies

Macedonian Ambassador to Ukraine Vlado Blazevski has reacted angrily to the request to Kiev to suspend arms supplies to Skopje, which had been aired by US National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice. Blazevski suggested that international attention should instead be focused on resolving the crisis in Kosovo. The following is the text of the report by Ukrainian television on 28 July.

Fragile but unbreakable US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, speaking for the White House, has requested the Ukrainian authorities to suspend arms supplies to the Republic of Macedonia. The [Ukrainian] president [Leonid Kuchma] said Ukraine would consider the request. Kuchma stressed that Ukraine is committed to a political settlement of the situation in Macedonia. At the same time, our state will stick to its commitments in the military and technical sphere. Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Republic of Macedonia to Ukraine, Vlado Blazevski, has given an exclusive interview to UT1 about the military and trade cooperation between Ukraine and Macedonia and commented on the request by Condoleezza Rice [to suspend arms supplies to Macedonia].

As the ambassador of Macedonia, I completely disagree with the demands put to Ukraine by certain countries, allegedly because of their worries that these arms could destabilize the situation in Macedonia. I would first of all invite all of these countries to take care about the situation in Kosovo, from whose territory the terrorists and international mercenaries are coming. I as the ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia cannot understand the demand, the request to suspend or, God forbid, to stop [arms supplies to Macedonia]. The republic of Macedonia and Ukraine started this cooperation not yesterday - it was started a year, two years, three years ago. I would also like to say that this cooperation will not contradict international treaties. I would like to stress that the Republic of Macedonia is not under any sort of embargo. As a state, Macedonia has its own commitments within the [NATO] Partnership for Peace programme, which requires creation of a small but strong army. Proceeding from this, we began to build our army. We are confident that had the international community resolved the situation in Kosovo, this would not have happened.

As to the comments made by [Ukrainian Foreign Affairs] Minister Anatoliy Zlenko, the Republic of Macedonia is very happy with his statement and I am grateful that he explained Ukraine's position. The Republic of Macedonia is very happy with the position proclaimed by Ukraine.

The only country Ukraine has a free trade agreement with, outside the CIS, is the Republic of Macedonia. This agreement was ratified by our parliaments within just four hours. This is very symbolic. It shows that our nations are tied together, tied by our past. Our nations have been friends for a thousand years now. I would like to use this opportunity to urge Macedonian and Ukrainian businessmen to step up their work.

10 posted on 05/20/2003 9:47:41 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Condi Rice went to the Ukraine to arm twist them to stop shipments of weapons to FYROMacedonia because the Bush administration wanted the Slavs to make a deal with the Albanian Muslims and partition the country along ethnic lines.

Destro, you're a lion sized ego with a mouse sized brain - we have been attempting to prevent Macedonia from splintering into ethnic statelets all along, and I would direct your attention to the results, which, while not perfect, are a damn sight better than what the morons in charge of the extremes of each of the warring parties were hoping for.

You're just going to have to get used to having your little christoslavist hopes and aspirations remaining unfulfilled - who in the US government supports your wacked out worldviews?

Nobody, that's who. Deal with it.

11 posted on 05/20/2003 11:49:45 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
You can spin Condi's backstab of FYROM all you want but in the "we" allowed the Albanians to get a third of that country without much of a fight. A fight the Slavo-Macedonians had every right to wage and a fight we had every obligation to support seeing as how FYROM is a member of NATO's Partnership for Peace.
12 posted on 05/20/2003 12:13:56 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Hoplite
PS: I won't even mention how we sent our troops into harm's wat to escort to safety Albanian terrorists who were about to be overun.
13 posted on 05/20/2003 12:16:06 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Perle is thankfully gone and this administration would do itself a favor to get rid of his evil twin- Wolfowitz who is not to be trusted either. He is too entrenched in the Cold War anti Slav pro Turkey mentality. Don't trust him to do what's right for America.
14 posted on 05/20/2003 1:29:03 PM PDT by eleni121
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To: eleni121
That Wolfowitz was so enamored with his Turks that he was willing to give them 50 to 90 billion dollars in aid over Iraq.

He and his ilk should be hounded out of office.

15 posted on 05/20/2003 1:34:08 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Well if you're not going to mention that, I won't mention how the Macedonian Government spent a couple of weeks trying to expel the ANA from Aracinovo through force of arms and, having failed, requested the intercession of the US to move the rebels away from Skopje:

I therefore want to lay out the aims of this government especially with regard to recent events. Last week this government had to take decisive action to remove the threat of terrorists operating close to the heart of our capital. The aim of that operation was to force the terrorists out of Arachinovo.
With the help of NATO and the EU this government removed the terrorist forces from Arachinovo, quickly and completely. By this method we achieved the same aim as the military operation – to remove the terrorists from the village.
President Trajkovski 6/26/01

Deal?

16 posted on 05/20/2003 4:33:12 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Destro
Destro- my diplomat luncheon friend confirmed the US role. Those suspicions are correct...:)) What he mentioned to me a week prior to anything published, one thing panned out but was never fully reported- the banning of all KPC personnel because none of the countries wanted those terrorists. Thats the reason- nobody wanted the terrorists, except the US. Zasto/Why?
17 posted on 05/20/2003 6:29:44 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: Hoplite
President Quisling? What else could you expect a quisling tell "his" nation but the "party" line?
18 posted on 05/20/2003 7:34:05 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Hoplite
How the Slavo-Macedonian people saw it (pictures of protests and everything):

One Year Since the Disgrace of Arachinovo and the Big Protests in Skopje. A reprint of an exclusive Reality Macedonia photo story published on June 25, 2001

I guess President Quisling needed to say something to answer the angry protestors.

19 posted on 05/20/2003 7:41:35 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: eleni121; RussianConservative; MEG33; Hoplite
http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans23.html

More signs NATO is behind ethnic Albanian attacks on Macedonia

by Stephen Gowans

A Canadian journalist has evidence that NATO is arming and equipping the ethnic Albanian guerillas who have waged a five-month long insurgency against the Macedonian government in Skopje.

Scott Taylor, editor of Espirit de Corps magazine, says that on a visit to guerilla bunkers overlooking the besieged Macedonian city of Tetovo he was welcomed with shouts of, "God bless America and Canada too for all they have provided to us." Canada is a member of the US-led NATO coalition.

Taylor says guerrilla commanders showed off their arsenal, which included side arms, sniper rifles and grenade launchers, all marked "Made in the USA." Says Taylor, one commander remarked that, "thanks to Uncle Sam, the Macedonians are no match for us."

Taylor isn't the first to charge that Washington is aiding the guerillas. The Macedonian government alleged that US helicopters were delivering supplies to guerillas in the mountains above Tetovo. US officials don't deny that airdrops were made, but say helicopters were transporting vital humanitarian aid. But Taylor says the local guerilla commander told him that the helicopters were delivering heavy mortars and ammunition. The guerillas have bombarded Tetovo with artillery.

Taylor says ethnic Albanian villagers cheer at the sight of US helicopters, while guerillas at brigade headquarters wear Nike-style T-shirts bearing the phrase, "NATO Air - Just do it!" Meanwhile, one Macedonian police officer lamented to Taylor that "if NATO hadn't been arming and equipping the (KLA) in Kosovo there would be no need for them to disarm these guerillas now."

This isn't the first time complaints about the US and NATO arming ethnic Albanian guerillas have been made. In March, a European K-For battalion commander told the London Observer that, "the CIA has been allowed to run riot in Kosovo with a private army designed to overthrow Slobodan Milosevic...Most of last year, there was a growing frustration with US support for the radical Albanians." And in January the BBC reported that Western forces were training guerillas, then opening a new front in southern Serbia and Macedonia.

In June, when Macedonian forces were closing in on guerillas in the town of Aracinovo, NATO intervened, transporting ethnic Albanian rebels out of the besieged town in air-conditioned busses. According to the German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt, 17 US advisors, belonging to an American mercenary firm involved in other Balkan conflicts, were among the guerillas. And the newspaper pointed out that 70 percent of the equipment carried away by the guerillas was US made.

Days earlier, a American diplomat was slightly wounded by Macedonian gunfire as he emerged from the woods (around Aracinovo) with two other Americans," according to the International Herald Tribune. The diplomats were emerging from rebel-held territory.

Two months ago, the London Sunday Times reported that at least 800 ethnic Albanian guerillas fighting in Macedonia are members of the Kosovo Protection Corps, a paramilitary police unit created by the UN from the KLA. The Times says, "Hundreds of KPC reservists were called up by their Albanian commander Agim Ceku, in March. They subsequently disappeared to former KLA training camps in Albania and are now re-emerging in Macedonia."

Ceku, one of the top leaders of the KLA, along with Hacim Thaci, was artillery chief of the Croatian army when it launched a war in the Krajina region of Croatia, which led to 250,000 Serbs being driven from their homes. Under the KPC, 250,000 Serbs, and another 100,000 Roma, Gorani, Turks and Jews have been driven from Kosovo. Now, the KLA offshoot in Macedonia, the NLA, seems intent on ethnically cleansing the largely Albanian Tetovo region. Over 120,000 Macedonians have fled or have been driven from their Tetovo area homes by guerillas. Ilir Hoxha, a 25-year old ethnic Albanian said, "Let them leave. They should never return. Tetovo is Albanian and it will remain Albanian."

For years, many Albanians have dreamed of resurrecting the greater Albania established under the Italian fascists, and then under the Nazis. It incorporated parts of Macedonia and Greece, southern Serbia, and Kosovo into Albania proper. Some reports say an ethnic Albanian Liberation Army of Chameria will open a new front in Greece soon.

Skopje has been hampered in its response to the guerillas. NATO and the EU have warned Macedonia not to crack down on the guerillas, and Ukraine, which was providing equipment to the under-equipped Macedonian army, was warned to stop shipments of materiel.

Meanwhile, press reports in the West describe NATO and EU diplomatic efforts as aimed at preventing a civil war, though the intention appears to be to prevent a strong Macedonian response.

The guerillas say they're fighting to win language rights, but critics point out that an armed attack is highly disproportional to the NLA's stated aims. Moreover, the fact that the guerillas have been recruited from Kosovo, pass freely over a Kosovo-Macedonia border presumably patrolled by NATO K-For forces, and have driven non-Albanians from their homes in an apparent effort to ethnically cleanse the Tetovo region, points to the pursuit of other goals, fully backed by NATO.

Taylor, who served in the Canadian Armed Forces, says NATO's support of the guerillas is so blatant "it is little wonder that the Macedonian majority have staged violent anti-NATO riots."

Mr. Steve Gowans is a writer and political activist who lives in Ottawa, Canada.

20 posted on 05/20/2003 7:46:38 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Spam, wonderful spam.

You are clueless and choose to believe anything critical of the US that fits in with your prejudices.

Got any pictures or actual proof of our having armed the ANA?

You never have, and you never will, 'cause it never happened. All you have are a bunch of stories from the leftist/Macedonian Nationalist coalition against America's actions in the Balkans, which you are regurgitating well past their freshness dates.

What it comes down to is this: if we wanted Greater Albania, it would be in existence right now.

It's not, ergo you, and all your links and articles to the contrary are worthless junk.

21 posted on 05/21/2003 11:44:43 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Leftists and nationalists??? all agreeing??? wow
22 posted on 05/21/2003 12:28:57 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Destro, the Gowans article is ridiculous. Neither, NATO, the US, or Canada are or were supporting the guerillas in Macedonia. On the contrary, they have supported the Macedonian govt with statements, diplomacy, financial aid, and military assistance funds and advisers. KFOR has patrolled the border with troops & UAVs to prevent illegal crossings. U.S. troops during that time have even had several skirmishes with Albanian guerillas crossing between Kosova and Macedonia. Blackhawks were used to insert, resupply, and extract some of the NATO/US troops vicinity the Kosovo-Macedonia border--the rumor that those helicopters were supporting Albanians started shortly later--I thought it had been put to rest when even the Macedonian military stated that it was baseless. Now, you can justifiably argue that KFOR did not use enough troops to do a good job of cutting off outside support coming through Kosovo, but that is much different than the utter B.S. about NATO/US support for the guerillas. That just did not happen. Ditto for the training of "private" armies and support for Albanian extremists in southern Serbia. Destro, the Albanian extremists were wrong and needed to be defeated, on that I agree, but you weaken your good points when you come up with this whacky conspiracy stuff.
23 posted on 05/21/2003 2:47:15 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
Of course we werent supporting the Albanians---just giving them air conditioned bus rides.
24 posted on 05/21/2003 5:13:32 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Hoplite; Destro
How is the proof of the diplomat confirming the "armed the ANA" role Hoplite? Is that good enough?

Would you like my identifying this diplomat? We ate at the Sunce Restoran in Novi Pazar. He had Raznici and I had Cevapi.

25 posted on 05/21/2003 7:37:51 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: mark502inf; Destro; Hoplite
Some of the information is baseless/clueless garble, but in the same proximity does ring true, albeit hollow in parts. All I can say is I recieved confirmation about the "ANA" extraction, the training and financing of the "KLA" by the US, dealings with the KLA to this day in coordination of a covert policy of ethnic cleansing of all Serbs from Kosovo. I stand by my sources to this day, I do not care what the "Internet" newsgroups/clippings/articles state. Nothing supplants the truth up/close and personal. I'm sure you understand what I am saying on that mark and hoplite. No one who has "served" understands what it AD is like/experience, as I use the military as a general example.

People write/gossip on what happened, what that unit "did" and how they are "barbarians" after an incident, i.e. What of the ones who know 1st hand, who knew some of the operators and such? On here, people such as Hoplite come right out and denounce those ppl as "traitors, Slobo-lovers, etc...". No, just reporting facts of eyewitness. :)

26 posted on 05/21/2003 7:45:52 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: Hoplite
What it comes down to is this: if we wanted Greater Albania, it would be in existence right now.

De facto, Greater Albania is already in existence right now. You know that. And as long as there is 'Camp Bondsteel' there will be a Greater Albania in the balkans. Congratulations. A real success story.

27 posted on 05/22/2003 2:32:11 AM PDT by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
De facto, Greater Albania is already in existence right now.

In your world, maybe.

Meanwhile, in the real world, things are a bit different.

You should spend some time exploring reality - it would make your posts less of a source of amusement.

28 posted on 05/22/2003 9:13:31 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
De facto, Greater Albania is already in existence right now.

That's the reality we are facing today in our world. The facts on the ground speak for themselves. Why don't you go to Kosovo and see it with your own eyes? You should spend some time travelling to the places you are talking about instead of pretending to know something about these places you have never seen with your own eyes. Or do you think your computer is the 'real world' and reality is your cyber-space-imagination?

29 posted on 05/22/2003 9:44:13 AM PDT by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
The facts on the ground speak for themselves.

Fine: Prove the existence of a single Albainian governing structure stretching from the Adriatic to Tetovo.

Better yet, accept that your statements on the matter and reality are out of synch and resolve not to let it happen so easily in future.

30 posted on 05/22/2003 11:39:05 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: DestroyEraseImprove; Hoplite
DEI- I was just there in parts of Kosovo and Southern Serbia... You are absolutely correct. Cyber world is differant then the real world. I met hostility in Novi Pazar as well as Kosovo and the border region, til I displayed that I was an "American". Beograd plates can get you killed there!
31 posted on 05/22/2003 2:44:04 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: Hoplite
There is Albania and and an albanian Kosovo under the protection of NATO today. That makes two albanian entities in the Balkans leading defacto to a 'Greater Albania' even if they are not united into one recognized state. Try to pass the 'border' from Albania to Kosovo and then go to Serbia and try to pass from there to Kosovo. You can't be that much retarded not to understand what I'm talking about. Under 1244 Kosovo is part of Serbia, but that's theory. In reality Kosovo is much more part of Albania today. So difficult to grasp for you? No, you're just playing dumb.
32 posted on 05/22/2003 3:33:11 PM PDT by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
Not even a nice try.

You point to two different regimes in Kosovo and Albania - that itself gives the lie to your statement. Greater Albania is the idea of one monolithic bloc of Albanians used to scare simpletons who can't be bothered to figure out the Albanians are not a monolithic group, much less being overly concerned about the conditions of their fellows in neighboring states.

Remember how well 'Greater Serbia' held together when the rubber hit the road in '95? All Karadzic had to say was that the Krajina Serbs were used to moving, and that was that.

The Albanians have never had anything approaching 'Greater Serbia', and they never will - the Albanians lack the centralization of purpose, organization and equipment to bring such a scheme to fruition.

Sorry, DEI - you can scare yourself with your boogeyman, but you're not scaring anybody who has a clue.

33 posted on 05/22/2003 4:26:53 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; DestroyEraseImprove
DEI- the way I had to enter Kosovo was under the radar, there is a checkpoint. Kosovo-Albanian border, clear sailing...

The reason why Hoplight doesnt acknowledge any of my posts is he knows I have facts and he can not dispute it in his cyberworld of nonreality. That is all he has, what the Net provides. I have offered him an all expense paid Pedal in Peace ride- start to finish. He has yet to answer the bell. He is cowardly, typical of these Net HumWarriors.

34 posted on 05/22/2003 6:16:24 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
Folks, let's all admit it...Hoplite is simply a schizophrenic simpleton. I have no doubts that he, like many of his ilk, is all for sealing the Mexican border and then escorting the million or so illegals from south of the border to the other side. However, he has no problem at all allowing a million or more ALBANIANS (i.e., from the country of Albania) to swarm (yes, like insects) over Kosovo and demand their legitimazation as 'Kosovars'. What absolute cheek!

If an analogous situation to the one that existed in Kosovo were to occur here (masses of illegal Mexican immigrants in Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas openly proclaiming their 'Aztlan' and murdering and persecuting 'Anglo devils'), you can depend on the fact that Hoplite and his ilk would be screaming for B-52 bombing missions. Collateral damage be damned.

35 posted on 05/24/2003 5:42:02 AM PDT by Putnik_1915
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To: MEG33
antiwar reprints what is aleady on the net, then it is up to each indvidual to decipher right v. wrong.
36 posted on 05/24/2003 8:12:27 AM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: Putnik_1915; Hoplite; DestroyEraseImprove; Destro; PiP PiP Cherrio
1. There is currently no "Greater Albania" in existence. Hoplite has it right--there is no central governing authority over the various ethnic Albanian factions nor is there any unifying authority over all the geographic areas where ethnic Albanians predominate.
2. There is little likelihood of a Greater Albanian in the future. The country of Albania has too many problems of its own. The different Albanian factions in FYROM, Kosova, south Serbia, and Montenegro do not have the same goals; in Kosovo and Macedonia they even fight amongst each other. Further, why would those outside Albania want to be united with that country--other than a vague romanticism? The ethnic Albanian living standards, opportunities, and education levels are much better in the neighboring areas than they are in Albania itself.
3. There are not a "million or more" Albanian immigrants in Kosovo. The population of Kosovo has only increased by a couple hundred thousand in the last 12 years--with a reduction of 200,000 Serbs, that gives an increase of about 400,000 Albanians over that time. Given the notoriously high ethnic Albanian birth-rates, only a minority of that increase came from immigration.
4. The major problem now and in the future with both Kosovo and Serbia is the same; that is to establish a rule of law democracy where the majority rules, but the rights of minorities are protected. UNMIK/KFOR is failing to do that now in Kosovo with the Serb minority and, ironically, the hesitance to take any steps at all toward reincorporation of Kosovo into Serbia is based on the fear that Serbia will do the same with the Kosovar Albanians.
5. The problem will not be ultimately solved until people in the Balkans see themselves and others as individuals first instead of as members of one ethnic group or another.
37 posted on 05/24/2003 11:18:59 AM PDT by mark502inf
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To: Putnik_1915; Hoplite; DestroyEraseImprove; Destro; mark502inf
I will comment soon on the issues araised by 502/homeagain.

I do beg to differ with your assesment on a number of issues relating to "Greater Albania" i.e. Coming Soon. A few pics from Bosna/RS

38 posted on 05/24/2003 3:15:25 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: Hoplite
Well if you're not going to mention that, I won't mention how the Macedonian Government spent a couple of weeks trying to expel the ANA from Aracinovo through force of arms and, having failed, requested the intercession of the US to move the rebels away from Skopje.

Sorry hoplite...looks like your head is up your ass AGAIN. US forces under direction of state dept traitor James Pardew intervened to rescue what was left of the KLA(al qaeda) and US mercenaries trapped at Aracinovo and about to be annihilated totally by the Macedonians. Everyone knows Trajkovski is merely a state dept puppet hanging in there to collect his pension. Everyone also knows that you're just a phoney islamic bullshitter and no one takes you seriously.

39 posted on 05/25/2003 9:43:48 PM PDT by kimosabe31
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To: kimosabe31; Hoplite; PiP PiP Cherrio
PiP PiP, nice pics--thanks for putting the link on your posts.

Kimosabe--The KLA does not equal either Al Qaeda or U.S. mercenaries! In fact, a significant driver in the decrease in hostilities in FYROM after 9/11 was the desire of UCK leadership NOT to be seen as linked in any way with Al Qaeda or Islamist terrorism. While there were a few ethnic Albanians who returned from the USA to fight with the KLA, they came of their own volition--and, again, it is not is the interests of the USA in any way to encourage more violence and ethnic separatism in the Balkans--where is the motivation of the USA to hire mercs, support the guerillas, etc?

The problem the Macedonian government had with the ethnic Albanian extremists in Macedonia, to include at Aracinovo, was in large measure a problem caused by a poorly trained and led Macedonian military. Because they had a short-term conscript Army with few professional NCOs or junior officers, they had little ability to conduct effective movement or fire & maneuver with small units---which is exactly what is necessary against an enemy holed up in towns or fighting guerilla style. So the Macedonians resorted to firepower-intensive solutions; tanks, attack helos, arty. The result was little harm to the Albanians who would just reposition, but lots of collateral damage that was widely reported and shown throughout Europe on TV. Consequently, although in the spring of 2001 virtually every European country was openly supporting FYROM in its fight against the ethnic Albanians, by summer public opinion and government attitudes had changed and the pressure was on FYROM to negotiate on relatively unfavorable terms. The inability to militarily defeat or at least take away the initiative from the Albanian extremists was a failure, not of the Macedonian soldiers or because of US "state dept traitors", but of the senior Macedonian political-military leaders who did not properly train or organize their army.
40 posted on 05/26/2003 10:07:22 AM PDT by mark502inf
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To: kimosabe31
It's strange that anti-American propaganda formulated for a domestic Macedonian audience should have such a long half life in America itself.

No worries - there is about as much proof for your chosen version of events at Aracinovo as there is for the 9-11 truck bomb at the Pentagon. All that remains is for you to figure out why you were suckered by one and not the other.

41 posted on 05/26/2003 10:14:41 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: MEG33
Anti war.com isn't known for its credibility.


Or for it's literary ability.
42 posted on 05/26/2003 10:15:37 AM PDT by tet68 (Jeremiah 51:24 ..."..Before your eyes I will repay Babylon for all the wrong they have done in Zion")
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To: Hoplite
OK, so why would a well-placed, high-ranking diplomat from a Western European nation acknowledge the US presense in Aracinovo? You feel s/he is lying? I think your "Internet Warriorness" is wearing thin with many of us, Hoplite. Provide proof there wasn't US personell among that group of terrorists?

What about the uranium that is inside Kosovo?

43 posted on 05/26/2003 11:52:33 AM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: mark502inf; Wraith; DTA; Honorary Serb; F-117A; inquest; Putnik_1915; Seselj; Karadjordje; ...
balkans bump- pictures are up on PiP Trip to Serbia Pictures- Stage 1
44 posted on 05/26/2003 7:38:50 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: DestroyEraseImprove; RussianConservative; Destro; *balkans
bump to others see post above
45 posted on 05/26/2003 7:39:58 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: PiP PiP Cherrio
Pip Pip, The evacuation at Aracinovo was a NATO operation done at the behest of the Macedonian government. Look at the statements made at the time by Macedonian officials. There were Americans involved as part of NATO, but--again--there was nobody from the US government, or anybody associated in any way with the US--involved in training or advising or assisting the KLA at Aracinovo or anywhere else during the Macedonian fighting. Perhaps there may have been private U.S. citizens with the KLA at Aracinovo--U.S. citizens have left the country on their own to serve in wars from the French Revolution to the Spanish Civil War & even to become part of the Taliban in Afghanistan! Your diplomat friend may have been referring to that type of involvement, which of course in no way reflects the US government's position. Or maybe he was just referring to the Americans operating as part of the NATO effort done in coordination with the FYROM government.

46 posted on 05/26/2003 7:56:55 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: Hoplite; Destro
The truth or a face saving statement?
47 posted on 05/26/2003 8:11:00 PM PDT by F-117A
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To: mark502inf
Unfortunately, their were armed US "citizens" evaced from Aracinovo. The Macs have their head so far up their arse, I discount whatever they say.

The US is currently training the KLA/KPC, according to the diplomat. Why is it the US is the only country their willing to train the KPC by flying them to US installations? The head of the Kosovo Mission is denying exit visas to any KPC personel due to their terrorist affilation.

48 posted on 05/26/2003 8:19:29 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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To: mark502inf; PiP PiP Cherrio
Because they had a short-term conscript Army with few professional NCOs or junior officers, they had little ability to conduct effective movement or fire & maneuver with small units---which is exactly what is necessary against an enemy holed up in towns or fighting guerilla style. So the Macedonians resorted to firepower-intensive solutions; tanks, attack helos, arty.

Sounds an awful lot like the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force. I don't recall seeing a lot of fire and maneuver exercises during Gulf War II.

49 posted on 05/26/2003 8:34:44 PM PDT by F-117A
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To: F-117A
The Macs were little boys when compared to the Albanians in regards to combat. The Albs had the upper hand, and the only action the Mac Army could do is overwhelming firepower- which failed miserably.
50 posted on 05/26/2003 8:54:21 PM PDT by PiP PiP Cherrio (Kosovo is Secure! -- www.pedalinpeace.org)
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